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just thought I’d add, I’m not citing poverty as an excuse for crime, just describing the tendency of the criminals.
And yes, poverty is relative, in global terms there are probably about half a dozen poor people in the entire UK.
But one of the reasons we don’t describe people with mobile phones or trainers or whatever as poor is because we have no real idea of how rich the average person is by comparison and absolutely no clue how rich the really wealthy are (or who they are for that matter) – and yet they steal too!
@gazlan wrote:
http://nathanieltapley.com/2011/08/10/an-open-letter-to-david-camerons-parents/
The link leads to a brilliant summary of another point I read recently. Poor criminals tend to commit crimes against poor victims and to use violence. They then are defined by the crime – thieves, thugs etc – without any chance of redemption.
Richer victims tend to commit so called white collar crime, which might have severe consequences, but is often allowed to pass with deference and is not seen as defining the individual. How many of the MPs and senior police officers etc named in the article will ever be referred to as fraudsters, embezzlers or thieves?
@eve wrote:
@jen_jen wrote:
1. The riots, as distressing as they are to watch, are a flash in the pan. They may have started out with a political trigger but they descended into sheer opportunism and greed. They will fizzle out when the risk of being caught (or hurt) becomes too great. . . . . . . . . .
Now here’s a moral question.
Your teenager is out for the evening and a riot breaks out not far from you. Desperately you try to contact them to make sure they’re ok. Finally you do, and they tell you they’re ok but they’re going to stay at their mates’ house tonight and they’ll be home in the morning. You go to bed relieved that they are safe. The following morning they come home with a rucksack full of electrical equipment, jewellery, clothes. You ask them where it came from and they grunt and say “it’s no big deal, I didn’t damage anything, it was just lying there, everyone was helping themselves so I did too. Don’t stress.”
What do you do?To answser Jen. slap their bloody ears off and make them turn it in to the police!
I read an article on Reuters quoting rioters from Hackney as saying that it was like the community – at least their part of it – taking control of the streets.
I do not agree with their action.
But it does echo a sentiment uttered by dissident voices from the BNP to the SWP to the countryside marchers, that British people of all kinds feel more and more powerless and less and less part of what is happening to them. Without a credible means to influence change, their frustration boils over in anarchic and destructive ways.
As to my teenager, I would resist the urge to unleash violence upon them – kinda counter-productive to say violence isn’t the answer and then hit someone don’cha think? I would explain what I thought about it and that for me they could not stay living in my household and use robbery to get hold of things. I would neither want the attention of other criminals nor the police. If I was convinced it was a first time, I would not report them to the police for the same reasons that Rubyred gave. Plus I wouldn’t want anyone I cared for to be the object of police proxy reprisals which are almost bound to follow.
What to do next? I think in my most convincing ‘li’l ole man’ clothes I’d put the stuff into a shopping trolley, walk it down to the high road/mall/wherever and find somewhere out of sight of the CCTV to dump the bags, then maybe give the police/security a call from a phone box to tell them I’d seen it there.
I know this won’t go down well with some, but I’m trying to answer honestly rather than pretend my boy/girl would be that impressed by my brawny right-hander.
@eve wrote:
@gazlan wrote:
@eve wrote:
once again a thread that could have had some interesting social opinions has come down to Gazlans rantings.
:lol: :lol: :lol: Please do share these interesting social opinions ~ I can’t wait!
It would be pointless Gazlan as the only opinions your are interested in are your own.
. . . but Gazlan isn’t the only person interested in this thread . . . .
@tinks wrote:
i did comment on the subject earlier………..i asked what this thread is supposed to be about……thought it was about riots as thats what the title says but as you read in it seems to have changed to god knows what by someone who hasn’t got a good word to say about this country.
Why do people live in a country they have to ‘diss’ at every given opportunity……….if it’s that bad why not close your eyes, stick a pin in the map and pissoffski.
There have been commentators other than Gazlan who have commented on the subject of the riots. You can actually read around his comments and join what has been quite an interesting discussion.
Assuming your question wasn’t rhetorical and that Gazlan’s stated antipathy to the British state and it’s current hegemony is not purely mischievous, a citizen is able to complain about their home country in the same way a someone might complain about their partner or spouse. Some leave who should leave and some leave who shouldn’t. Same for those who stay. If they leave, where would they go? And if the people who don’t like it all leave, who will help an imperfect country to change for the better?
If people from other countries “stick their pin” in the UK and come here, they don’t always get much of a welcome. Maybe we should applaud their decision more loudly.
@tinks wrote:
@eve wrote:
once again a thread that could have had some interesting social opinions has come down to Gazlans rantings.
yes eve and the fact that he feels he has the right to post personal comments about someone when he clearly judges by the cover and no more.
The best way to avoid it going that way is to disregard the personal comments and comment on the subject. He doesn’t know you, his opinion is only/at least as valid as anyone else’s, his personal comments are just tiny spherical objects which are only as potent as you allow them to be.
@mrs_teapot wrote:
… . Yes words its wonderful that we have young people turning out to help with the clean up, I never said it wasn’t.
Sorry you got the impression I was saying you had said that Mrs T. I didn’t say it, and didn’t mean it either. I was addressing the subject of the thread generally, not you in particular.
@gazlan wrote:
What a terrible shame to see all those business’ in turmoil . ‘collateral damage’ springs to mind . . . Thank heavan for insurance I can hear you say!
Collateral damage is still damage. Insurance partially compensates for financial loss, but for family businesses, whether new or well established the owner often has a huge personal and emotional investment in the business. I feel traumatised enough by events, people directly affected must be totally distressed.
In Tottenham the damage will have put back years of trying to get businesses to invest in the area to provide jobs and income for local people. I’m glad you manage on state benefits GAZLAN, I don’t think it’s sufficient for many people and the application process is even more dehumanising than the most menial jobs. Never mind the sheer depressing nature of walking past derelict sites. Over a mile of high street laid waste.
Political or systemic arguments are relevant, but they don’t address the deep individual losses, physical, emotional and social.
Well, two young people I know have got up far earlier than they would on a school holiday to go down to Dalston and help with the clear-up. There are places to donate clothes etc for people disposessed by the fires etc. Opportunities are there to show that we actually care about people, not just fulminate like armchair colonels. . . .. .
Don’t know if the links will come out.
http://www.riotcleanup.co.uk/Riot_Clean_Up.php
http://www.riotcleanup.com/pages/upcoming-cleanups
I’d post the links if it would let me
@eve wrote:
Y does gaz have to hijack every thread with his totally incomprehensible rants?
Maybe this thread should be under “Getting Serious” but here’s my brief take on the subject.
The Riots? At first anger over a man shot by police – I hope they it was justified, I want to trust the police, but the first few hours after Jean Charles de Menezes was shot had him running, ignoring “stop” commands, in heavy clothes and showing wires; all false and the ‘eye witnesses’ faded away mysteriously. So I fear this one won’t be pretty either.
The looting? Greed, boredom (I’ll put 3/6d on it being over after the next weekend), disaffection and yes, poverty – of ideas, of hope and of purpose.
The looters? A tiny proportion not representative of anyone. Selfish, greedy, ignorant, unimaginative, will include mentally vulnerable and psychopathic people.
The solution? Intelligence, real change. integrity, consistency and vision.
One thing Gazlan gets right though, the establishment does keep us oblivious and obedient.
