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On October 2nd of this year, the people of the Republic Of Ireland will be asked to vote for a second time in a referendum on amending the Irish Constitution in relation to the ratification of
THE TREATY OF LISBON.If passed, this will rubber stamp the parliamentary green lights already given by a large majority of other EU member states to the treaty.
Unlike these other countries, Irish law dictates that any change to it’s constitution must be put to a vote by the people, hence last year’s defeat at the polls putting the full implementation of the accord on hold.Reasons given for this initial defeat varied from complete misunderstanding and misinformation as to what the treaty actually meant, to issues of sovereign neutrality and an EU army, to the issue of maintaining permanent Commissioner positions for each and every member state.
With a recently drawn up list of Reassurances from the EU political establishments regarding all the above and more, the Irish electorate will yet again be asked to make a decision.
Like every EU treaty before it, current specifications stipulate that Lisbon must be ratified unanimously or it won’t be viable at all. Hence October’s vote is crucial not only to the Irish, but the EU as a whole. The larger political parties of Ireland have weighed in heavily with their support for a Yes vote, as they did last year – and there are faint murmurings that a THIRD vote may be an option in the event of another defeat.Do you think it fair that having already rejected what is essentially the same sell, the Irish people – and indeed Europe as a whole – should be asked (forced?) to rethink?
Are these “Reassurances” enough?
Does this smack of “Well, we’ll respect your decision, but we are gonna keep asking you to vote.. that is until you get it right?”.Is this the very kind of thing that makes people suspicious of the EU?
I’ve left a poll question.. so you all become something of honorary Irish on this thread ;)
But please feel free to elaborate on what you personally think of the EU as a whole?
A good thing? A bad thing?
In general are you for or against the union?
If so, do we really need to change it’s present incarnation? Is Lisbon just a rubber stamp signifying no real, substantial change?
Or do we need to pause for a while and seriously look at where it’s all going, and what it’s leading to?
What we effectively have here is an admission that any referenda will not count even if countries do hold them. An admission that the EU will simply ignore any member state that has concerns with the Lisbon Treaty and make them vote again and again till they come out with the “right” result, now that the elites in Brussels have come to an agreement. So even if the Irish vote “No” again, they’ll be asked to vote again.
What we have here, in other words, is an admission that the European Parliament/Commission does not believe in democracy.
:D :) :lol:
I think i have to largely agree with my respected predecessor (above) Quiet Man,It would appear that as the vote already taken did not ‘please’ then voting shall begin again and again until it brings about the ‘right’ vote.
is this actually right in its self, is it legal to keep making peeps vote for something they have obviously made their opinions known?I am bordering on being an anti-euope peep i think.
I would prefer that as a country (UK) we need to keep some form of identity and systems that we as a country run ourselves via our government, not be governed by peeps who do not, probobly have not and will not live in that country they are trying to govern.
does that make sense?
thats where i stand at the moment…..
I am open to others opinion and it would do me gd to hear (or read) them
:wink:Although despite my name i am politically clueless,I agree with my delightful friend Quiet Man and the delicious Jay, continuing to be expected to re vote on something so soon just totally weakens democracy, we were fobbed off with the eu rubbish here in britain, about it not being a constituional treaty and how it doesnt alter the basic relations between europe and its member states,so didnt require a referendum, but isn’t it transferring rights and power from the UK to the EU? isn’t that a change in basic relations and therefore weakening “our”democracy ?
As jay said i’d be interested to hear the counter arguement as im all for moving forward, but not just for the sake of change or to “fit in” . Where exactly is the benefits to the EU at all to individual countries, apart from promoting free movement of trading. people , money, is this really a benefit ? i am not so sure it is or has been. Our own traders have suffered from Eu regulations as well as imports. Our farming for one has been nearly desecrated by EU rules and regulations and being unable to compete with the cheaper imports. We are slowly losing our identity as a nation and become part of an undemocratic mish mash of red tape and nonsense. Before you know it we will have an Eu flag probably very german orientated, our forefathers fought for their countries, fought to be proud of their own nation, and what do we do but make all those deaths pointless and follow them into the 21st century and become followers rather than leaders of our own destiny’s and our own countries successes. Not just UK or Ireland but any of the EU countries, do they really want a far less homogeneous population. Yes we need to move forward possibly embrace new cultures but not to the degree one becomes discernible from another.
Ok i have wandered off track here a bit so to the point in question..Will /should Ireland be beaten into continious voting submission ? i hope not, they should stand up for their own constitution and not be brow beaten into changing it. The wrong result will effect us all so no your decision is made and it should be left as such atleast until such time as it could be re looked at in say 50 years time :)Your reasoned argument wanders off into the realm of fanatical rant, Poli when you introduce the notion of a ‘germanic orientated’ flag and the deaths of our forefathers rendered pointless by the existence of the EU – when in fact the EU came about in part to unite previously warring nations – all of whom had blood spilled on European soils.
Forcing the Lisbon Treaty may be an appalling act of political trickery, but demonising the EU as some kind of quasi-fascist superpower isn’t helpful. Incidentally the EU flag exists already – note the absence of swastika.
There can be no question that forcing referenda until the result is the one wanted by those – and such as those – is wrong! wrong! wrong!
Yet it isn’t that simple, as a Scot I would prefer total independence for my country, but it isn’t working for Ireland..so what is the answer? Regarding the EU, what started in the seventies as an economic union, is now heading towards federalism and I’m wary of it to say the least. Independence within Europe is the ideal, but I don’t know that it will happen.
In summary: I’m against the second referendum, I want to see fundamental changes in the current set-up of the EU – less federalism more independence within Europe. In reality, we are all interdependent on one another, that isn’t going to change, but it has to be about honouring our disparate cultures. and devolving more power back to individual government.
Despite my ignorance on the subject and so offering merely a personal opinion, I did know about the EU flag, what i meant was that will be the ONLY flag for every “EU country”and i wouldnt be suprised if it doesnt end up having a swastika neatly embossed in it, but you are right Esme i went off on a fanatical rant, i dont think their should be a european union, i dont agree with it and i don’t believe the blood spilt was to achieve what we now have as a “super state” dictated to by others. Nato treaty bringing armies together after the 2nd world war is one thing,but this farce of a union,is a removal of individual nations democracy,(in my uneducated opinion on the matter that is ) that i don’t like, what i asked for was anothers viewpoint as to why we should have or need it. Rather than just the fact that my demonising the EU serves no purpose, i chose to have that opinion but i am open to any arguements as to why it is in any way beneficial to us as a seperate nation whether that be english, scottish or any other. Why does my opinion serve no purpose exactly ? thats what i would like to know, how can i see this in a different light? guide me and teach me how wrong i am in this opinion made up from this lack of knowledge.
The French are in the EU ergo it’s crap
@(f)politics? wrote:
Despite my ignorance on the subject and so offering merely a personal opinion, I did know about the EU flag, what i meant was that will be the ONLY flag for every “EU country”and i wouldnt be suprised if it doesnt end up having a swastika neatly embossed in it, but you are right Esme i went off on a fanatical rant, i dont think their should be a european union, i dont agree with it and i don’t believe the blood spilt was to achieve what we now have as a “super state” dictated to by others. Nato treaty bringing armies together after the 2nd world war is one thing,but this farce of a union,is a removal of individual nations democracy,(in my uneducated opinion on the matter that is ) that i don’t like, what i asked for was anothers viewpoint as to why we should have or need it. Rather than just the fact that my demonising the EU serves no purpose, i chose to have that opinion but i am open to any arguements as to why it is in any way beneficial to us as a seperate nation whether that be english, scottish or any other. Why does my opinion serve no purpose exactly ? thats what i would like to know, how can i see this in a different light? guide me and teach me how wrong i am in this opinion made up from this lack of knowledge.
Your initial post failed to clarify that you believed there would be an EU flag to the exclusion of all others – although I see you still insist on the outrageous reference to fascist Germany in its design. I rather think the French at the very least would disagree with you on the likelihood of that one.
Whilst entitled to your opinion..I am entitled to mine which finds a deal of repugnance in the little englander attitude still harking back to war and loss of life as a reason to continue to hate the rest of the world particularly those bloody krauts.
That said – yes I want independence for Scotland – but i’m also a realist and at present Independence in Europe – is our way forward. Thus, in theory this means accepting the responsibilities of a member state of the Eu, in which independent states have pooled certain of their sovereign rights for the common good.
I believe the arrow has so far missed the target, we teeter on federalism to our cost and have – at the very least – to begin to claw back a few of our sovereign rights to balance the European see-saw. And with that mix of metaphors, I shall endeth this sermon on the mount.
:wink:You misunderstand me Esme, i dont hate the rest of the world and have no feelings against the germans french or any other country, but that was my wording saying german orientated i really meant more Na zi rather than german as such, and im not against a cultural mix as long as the country maintains its own recognition for example as british, english however you wish to class it, what i am against is the EU “super state” having any other country german or otherwise including america dictating to us what we should or shouldnt do, and yes you are entitled to your opinion and i am all for moving forward but as i said not for the sake of it and not for the lesser good which in my opinion the way it stands it is, which is why i am inviting others to educate me on the positive sides and enlighten me on this, as at this point i see nothing factually to change my opinion.
It’s Europe it aint the United States it wont work, it’ll never work, each country kicks and screams over any sacrifices while the others try and obtain maximum sacrifice. Pull out what will happen ? Tariffs most probably so that though membership is expensive non membership costs even more.
The French cant stand us ffs they blocked our original application for entry, old big nose De Gaulle who we saved in WW2. There isnt really a common interest hell there’s not even a common language.
Nothing personal but independance for Scotland, that would be finicial disaster without the EU
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