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13 November, 2012 at 11:03 pm #515229
@pepsi wrote:
@pepsi wrote:
“Racism is usually defined as views, practices and actions reflecting the belief that humanity is divided into distinct biological groups called races and that members of a certain race share certain attributes which make that group as a whole less desirable, more desirable, inferior or superior.”
The above is a quote …yes but that is exactly as I see the term racism.
In addition, briefly …
Views, practices and actions ( as above )
Discrimination.
Hatred or intolerance.It’s a very difficult one to define and understand Jen.
:?:
It is difficult to define and understand indeed Pepsi…I think how you see it is quite similar to my view.
I’d expand fiurther…any discrimination based on racial background, both positive and negative discrimination. I find positive discrimination just as abhorrent as negative.
13 November, 2012 at 11:05 pm #51523014 November, 2012 at 2:15 am #515231On another thread Rusty has said “they had fears and concerns which may have arisen out of racism but doesn’t necessarily make them racist.” Sorry to pick this out Rusty and I acknowledge that it is being used out of context but it is an example of something I’ve heard several times recently, i.e. “he has concerns because of their race but he’s not racist.”
Crikey! This is a topic beset with many a potential opportunity to risk looking like a limp-wristed liberal (which, come to think of it, might be quite an apt description for me) or a strident Nazi, but I’ll give it a go. I did make the above statement and hopefully the following words will begin to give my intended meaning some context.
There’s quite a lot I want to address here but I’ll keep it short-ish, hopefully giving some insight into my way of thinking.
1. Political Correctness
Political correctness is a term that always evokes strong, contentious emotions and incites the ‘comedy’ press to make ridiculous claims that are very rarely supported by factual evidence. I’ve heard the statement ‘political correctness gone mad’ far more times than I care to remember. Usually , in my experience, it has been a caveat indicating someone is seeking licence to be downright rude about those who are not like them.
I suspect that in reality very few people want to be identified as vertically challenged or a person of colour, but I’d wager they want to be treated as equals. How we choose to identify people has impact. Language is never devoid of added meaning, explicit and in the subtext. Language always gives insight about relationship between the speaker and the listener.
In synthesis I think political correctness is about showing mutual respect and transcending the language and thought processes that can impinge opportunities to live life to its fullest potential. If at the very least political correctness makes us think twice before using homophobic, racist, sexist or other vile words, then I’m all for it.
That’s not say political correctness is always right, context and common sense are always applicable. I can think of two illustrations that might provide insight into what I’m trying to explain:
Let’s say a little old lady is mugged on her way home and she reports the crime to a policeman. She’s quite astute and she’s quite detailed when providing a description. 6’ 2”, short black hair, scar on his left cheek just below his eye. Dark blue jeans, black sports jacket, black gloves and expensive Nike trainers. It’s a vivid description and it will probably be helpful to the police. But because this dear little old lady fears being perceived as a racist, she neglects to mention that the culprit is Chinese. A very useful detail that just might be of great of assistance to the police. I know, I know, this is an unrealistic example, the police would obviously ask questions about race, but I’m sure it serves as a decent illustration.
Or consider an inept doctor who is speaking to a patient on the telephone who presents all the classic symptoms of sickle cell anemia (a disease that people of African Caribbean descent have a higher predisposition of acquiring). But he neglects to ask the patient’s ethnicity and therefore misses one the important signifiers that will assist his/her preliminary diagnosis.
Sometimes people want to hurt at all costs. A couple divorcing with palpable rancour and animosity may understandably say to hell with political correctness. They know where the bodies are buried and they know what’s going to elicit a response. Sure, they didn’t mind that their partner was only 4 foot tall when they were in love – but now he’s a midget. A fat midget! A midget with ginger hair! A drunk midget! A midget with a peg leg and a speech impediment! Sorry, I’m going on a bit, but it hurt back then and it still hurts now. Seriously speaking, this person isn’t anti small people or people with ginger hair. It’s just this particular small person that she no longer likes. Political correctness can get in the way of invectives. Context is everything.
There are some who are unwilling to accept that context and meaning is everything though. There are those who proffer black rappers as their evidence: they use the N-word so why shouldn’t I? I would suggest that they are unwilling to acknowledge the historic weight of the word and how it has been employed as a tool in the subjugation of black people. And anyway the real question should be why would you want to?
Interestingly Eminem, the singularly most successful white rapper, may have used the word in his youth, but he now wisely states that it has no place in the lexicon of a white rapper, and I’m hard pressed to find another white hip hop artist that could assert a stronger legitimate claim for wanting to say it.
2. John Terry
Which clumsily brings me to John Terry. Is he a racist? I don’t know. I know he has appeared to have made racist statements in the past. I think he should have learned his lesson. I think that even in the febrile heat of a Premiership football game he should now Know better And since he does not appear to have learned the lesson, I don’t feel too guilty when I am inclined to allege that the man’s a fool.
Incidentally, I think there is a bigger story here about how the FA, hitherto, have paid lip service to the issue of race in football and although Kick Racism Out has had great success on British terraces, financial or legislative support from the FA has been minimal. But I’m prone to digression so I’ll stop here on this.
Similarly I don’t feel comfortable claiming that Ron Atkinson, a respected former football manager and pundit, is necessarily a racist because he erroneously called Marcel Desailly, a racist name when he thought he was off-mike. This is in no small part because he gave three black players opportunities to become household names when no other managers were willing or able to give capable black players similar opportunities. And, yes, I’m aware that he often referred to them as the Three Degrees.
3. I find myself at a loss to understand how someone can use words, have fears, hold preconceptions, based on ethnicity yet not be considered a racist yet it is something I keep hearing/reading. So in all good faith I am asking:
I hope I’ve addressed my way of thinking about this in my ramble above, but I wanted to touch on preconceptions based on ethnicity. We all have preconceptions and prejudices (not necessarily negative) until we have the knowledge to know better, it’s how the human brain works, filling in gaps with supposition when necessary that enable us to choose fight or flight. A racist will attempt to discredit learned truths and deny what all reasonable, fair minded people know to be the truth: ‘we are all more alike than we are different.
There’s a lot more I’d love to say, but if i haven’t already put you to sleep I most definitely would if I continued.
14 November, 2012 at 8:04 am #515232@jen_jen wrote:
@panda12 wrote:
Was it racism or xenophobia?
I see xenophobia as a form of racism…
I don’t. I think it is quite natural for people brought up in one culture to have a fear of another, unfamiliar culture even if that fear does seem irrational. It doesn’t mean they are racist.
For instance, in Africa there are still some cannibalistic tribes. If I expressed my fear of them by saying, “I’m not going there, they might eat me,” am I being racist?
I don’t think so. It’s nothing to do with their race, it’s their culture that scares me.
14 November, 2012 at 9:56 am #515233@jen_jen wrote:
“they had fears and concerns which may have arisen out of racism but doesn’t necessarily make them racist.”
My ex was asian …. I lived in an area that was predominantly white british …. where other families outside of the ‘norm’ so to speak had been targeted in the past for being ‘different’ …..
I had concerns and fears …. of how others would accept his being there … would it make us a target etc ….. but the fact that I was in a relationship with him would mean I’m not a racist!
Just my take on how what is quoted could work for some and how the way in which something is written in flat text could mean so much more combined with context, tone etc.
14 November, 2012 at 10:23 pm #515234I find this story incredible for a few reasons
You said this happened a couple of years ago. What kind of school lets someone put items and personal notes in bags of children?? Were the personal notes run by the headmaster I wonder? I find that alarming in itself. The couple weren’t obviously supervised else the
exclusion of certain children would have been immediately noticed and not taken a good teacher’s instincts to bring it to light.
Like you I would have returned his vouchers and told him how unacceptable what he did was in my school.
As for not upsetting him because he did alot of good work for the school? Alarm bells ring in my head immediately. No one wanted to upset Jimmy Saville and all the good work he did for charities so as has come to light his behavioiur was hushed up. Maybe that comparison I have given is extreme…but it’s along similar lines in my opinion.
Personally I think given the details we have been the guy soiunds a racist and an arsehole14 November, 2012 at 10:55 pm #515235What do I think racism is?
Being abusive physically or verbally to someone purely because they are a different colour or from a different country to yourself.
Treating someone differently or negatively because they are a different colour or from a different country to yourself.As for example JT using racist language but not branded a racist…this can be very difficult to explain and different people will have different opinions on it…I don’t think its as simple as “he called me a **** he is a racist”
From personal experience an example I can give:
A customer comes in before 10am on a Sunday morning wanting to buy Alcohol. He is refused due to licencing laws. He is a regular customer (up until then :lol: ), often stand and chats about everything and anything, never had a problem with him in the past. He asks me to bend the rules and not put the purchase through the tills but keep the money under the counter and ring it through after 10am. I refuse again. He says he won’t tell anyone. I refuse. He says he is heading out somewhere and cannot get back after 10am and would rather buy the alcohol from me (trying to butter me up) and again I refuse. I tell him I will not break the law for anyone. He starts getting a bit aggitated and presses for the sale again. I tell him to stop asking me as I am not going to change my mind and he is wasting his time and I do not want to get into an argument with him. Then he uses the “f” word in frustration expressing it’s a village and no one will ever know. I refuse to even acknowledge him at this stage and carry on serving other customers. Then he stands in the doorway and calls me a fucking Paki and leaves the shop.
Is he a racist? Or an ignorant arsehole who couldn’t get his way and wanted me to feel so small by calling me a name which he probably knew would offend me?15 November, 2012 at 2:21 am #515236@kent f OBE wrote:
. . . . . . . Is he a racist? Or an ignorant arsehole who couldn’t get his way and wanted me to feel so small by calling me a name which he probably knew would offend me?
The two are not necessarily mutually exclusive . . . . . . .
15 November, 2012 at 6:51 am #515237Kenty I think this excerpt from RustyTrawlers post is relevant to your customer… when everything was well with your relationship he likes you ….but this example sums it up….
Sometimes people want to hurt at all costs. A couple divorcing with palpable rancour and animosity may understandably say to hell with political correctness. They know where the bodies are buried and they know what’s going to elicit a response. Sure, they didn’t mind that their partner was only 4 foot tall when they were in love – but now he’s a midget. A fat midget! A midget with ginger hair! A drunk midget! A midget with a peg leg and a speech impediment! Sorry, I’m going on a bit, but it hurt back then and it still hurts now. Seriously speaking, this person isn’t anti small people or people with ginger hair. It’s just this particular small person that she no longer likes. Political correctness can get in the way of invectives. Context is everything.
I wouldn’t mind betting your customer regrets his silliness now…… but there’s “nowt so queer as folk” :D
15 November, 2012 at 9:57 am #515238@wordsworth60 wrote:
@kent f OBE wrote:
. . . . . . . Is he a racist? Or an ignorant arsehole who couldn’t get his way and wanted me to feel so small by calling me a name which he probably knew would offend me?
The two are not necessarily mutually exclusive . . . . . . .
I know :roll: But I was giving an example of a situation where racist words are used and personally I don’t think it makes a person racist…..just from that example alone
We all have different opinions and varying tolerences regarding certain situations…and these make our opnions differ -
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