Two British warships being sent to Middle East

@Fester wrote:

Self declared enemies? What other definition is there of an enemy exactly? They all declare themselves enemies when fighting do they not? Wouldn’t be much point otherwise.

Security Council resolutions, more violated by Israel and vetoed by the USA than any other country in the world. Take a look at violated resolutions by neighbouring countries as opposed to Israel and weigh up the evidence. See which country blocks or veto’s more resolutions than any other of the permanent security council. The report is here (pdf format).

Poor Israel and their heartbreaking plight huh? When people feel helpless they resort to whatever is necessary. When it comes to the point you are willing to lose your life, that is the ultimate sacrifice and in the case of palestinians, desperation. However looking from both camps, yet again it is ever decreasing circles. Two races that hate each other, have no trust of each other, and will not settle differences.

I wrote armed by their self-declared enemies. I know things are moving fast but I’m pretty sure a shooting war hasn’t broken out between Israel and Iran! That hasn’t stopped Iran declaring themselves (self-declared) the enemies of Israel and calling for Israel to be wiped off the map. Being too cowardly to do anything about it themselves, however, they prefer to use terrorist proxies like Hezbollah to do their dirty work.

Also, my note about the Security Council resolutions was posted to show that these work both ways. As your link shows, all countries routinely ignore UN resolutions unless force is threatened, not just Israel and, as you point out, the USA, as part of the P5, routinely vetoes forcible resolutions aimed against Israel, rendering them worthless.

At least you are beginning to realise there are two sides to the mess now. A climbdown from your previous rabid position that is to be welcomed.

Sweetasbaileez, many of the people who are being rescued are dual citizens of both Lebanon and the UK, simply visiting family and loved ones. We can’t go around telling people where they can and can’t be visiting. This is a free country – the government simply doesn’t have the right to do that – they can only advise through the Foreign Office reports. I think there is a difference in putting yourself in direct danger by visiting a war zone and simply getting caught up in an outbreak of violence. In either case, as a British subject you are entitled to expect that Her Majesty’s government will do their best to help you out if it is at all possible.

Which brings me to Mr Bigstuff’s points. Attempting to extract British subjects from southern Lebanon at the moment without the cooperation of the Israelis would be plain foolhardy. Quite frankly, if the idea is to safeguard British lives, it is safer for them to stay put until such cooperation can be negotiated. It’s nothing to do with ‘not having the balls’. As for resolution 242, Fester’s link makes clear that it is debatable as to whether Israel is in non-compliance. Further, Israel is not ‘laying waste’ to Lebanon. This emotive language gets us nowhere. Some three hundred people have been killed in Lebanon by Israeli action. If genocide was the aim of the Israelis then, given the operational abilities of the Israeli armed forces, we could expect many more dead than that.

@pikey wrote:

@Fester wrote:

Self declared enemies? What other definition is there of an enemy exactly? They all declare themselves enemies when fighting do they not? Wouldn’t be much point otherwise.

Security Council resolutions, more violated by Israel and vetoed by the USA than any other country in the world. Take a look at violated resolutions by neighbouring countries as opposed to Israel and weigh up the evidence. See which country blocks or veto’s more resolutions than any other of the permanent security council. The report is here (pdf format).

Poor Israel and their heartbreaking plight huh? When people feel helpless they resort to whatever is necessary. When it comes to the point you are willing to lose your life, that is the ultimate sacrifice and in the case of palestinians, desperation. However looking from both camps, yet again it is ever decreasing circles. Two races that hate each other, have no trust of each other, and will not settle differences.

I wrote armed by their self-declared enemies. I know things are moving fast but I’m pretty sure a shooting war hasn’t broken out between Israel and Iran! That hasn’t stopped Iran declaring themselves (self-declared) the enemies of Israel and calling for Israel to be wiped off the map. Being too cowardly to do anything about it themselves, however, they prefer to use terrorist proxies like Hezbollah to do their dirty work.

Also, my note about the Security Council resolutions was posted to show that these work both ways. As your link shows, all countries routinely ignore UN resolutions unless force is threatened, not just Israel and, as you point out, the USA, as part of the P5, routinely vetoes forcible resolutions aimed against Israel, rendering them worthless.

At least you are beginning to realise there are two sides to the mess now. A climbdown from your previous rabid position that is to be welcomed.

Sweetasbaileez, many of the people who are being rescued are dual citizens of both Lebanon and the UK, simply visiting family and loved ones. We can’t go around telling people where they can and can’t be visiting. This is a free country – the government simply doesn’t have the right to do that – they can only advise through the Foreign Office reports. I think there is a difference in putting yourself in direct danger by visiting a war zone and simply getting caught up in an outbreak of violence. In either case, as a British subject you are entitled to expect that Her Majesty’s government will do their best to help you out if it is at all possible.

Which brings me to Mr Bigstuff’s points. Attempting to extract British subjects from southern Lebanon at the moment without the cooperation of the Israelis would be plain foolhardy. Quite frankly, if the idea is to safeguard British lives, it is safer for them to stay put until such cooperation can be negotiated. It’s nothing to do with ‘not having the balls’. As for resolution 242, Fester’s link makes clear that it is debatable as to whether Israel is in non-compliance. Further, Israel is not ‘laying waste’ to Lebanon. This emotive language gets us nowhere. Some three hundred people have been killed in Lebanon by Israeli action. If genocide was the aim of the Israelis then, given the operational abilities of the Israeli armed forces, we could expect many more dead than that.

i still think a total ban on uk citizens visiting there whatever their reasons’would be appropriate..if they’re not there, our boys don’t have to go and get them :D. besides that you only have to visit H :shock: :D ove to see half of the arab population have moved there

@Magoo wrote:

@Magoo wrote:

And it’s said so many times but people join the armed forces to defend it’s citizens and shores, they have to expect to be in danger zones when called upon.

Never said they join to die, we’d have an army of about three otherwise! But they do have to accept the dangers. Thats what they train for.

i know you7 never said that hun …i did !! :D and whos the three ?? are they stupid :!: :D

Pikey, you’ve got it completely wrong. Resolution 242 says that taking land by war violates the UN charter and that Israel has to leave the land it took in 1967. You say it’s debatable as to whether Israel is in non-compliance but it’s obvious that Israel hasn’t complied because it still has land that belongs to the Palestinians and Syrians.

You also say that our government should seek permission and negotiate with Israel before we evacuate our citizens from southern lebanon. If our government had any balls we would tell Israel when we want to carry out the evacuation and warn them that there would be severe consequences if they don’t cooperate. We could threaten them with sanctions or we could threaten to sink their navy. The idea that we should seek permission from Israel to rescue British citizens from Lebanon is absurd. The Israelis should be told in no uncertain terms that there will be hell to pay if they don’t do what we tell them. We shoud be telling them what to do we shouldn’t be begging them for permission to evacuate our citizens.

If Israel is not laying waste to Lebanon then how do you explain the scale of devastation. I saw pictures yesterday of a residential area in southern Beirut that was completely destroyed. The Israelis claim that there was a Hizbollah office there but the entire street was destroyed. It was destruction on a huge scale. There was also that claim by Israel that they dropped 23 tons of explosives on a bunker. Hizbollah said it was actually a mosque under construction and CNN showed pictures of the site which seemed to agree with Hizbollah’s version of events. It was a mosque under construction. Israel’s bombing is unjustifiable. Louise Arbour, the UN high commissioner for human rights, has stated that members of Hizbollah and members of the Israeli military could face prosecution for war crimes.

Here’s more on the debate over resolution 242.

I wanted to add, Bigstuff, that if I seem to be taking the Israeli side in these comments, it is simply because I feel the need to counterpoise your admittedly one sided view of the situation and show that in my eyes there is fault and justification on both sides.