Turin Shroud

draculina wrote:

I don’t see how you could prove that the shroud was used on Jesus. If Jesus was a real person, we don’t what what he looked like, or have his DNA (if he even had DNA, being God). Even if through carbon dating, or some other method showed that the shround wasn’t 2000 years old, it doesn’t disprove that it was used by Jesus either. As there is no evidence that he ever existed, he could have lived in any time

Ancient writers/historians like Josephus, Tacitus, and Paul make mention of Jesus and it’s my understanding that there are no writings from the ancient world ever suggesting that Jesus didn’t exist or denied that he was real historical person.  Even the philosopher Celsus, who wrote against Christianity and mocked Christians, accepted that Jesus existed.  The Early Church Fathers (ECFs) wrote against heresies of the day, but there’s no record of them writing against the claim that Jesus did not exist as a historical figure.

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lindaclemenza7

Hi Cleared. You appear to be suggesting that what you describe as human consciousness is only unique to humans, therefore humanist in nature and so is not consistent with evolution and so is a direct correlation pointing towards a ‘higher’ being, a god, because consciousness can’t be explained in full, thus far, by science.

I think science already goes someway explaining what so called “consciousness” is. Eg when the chemistry in the brain changes, so does the “mind”. The mind determines our level of consciousness. The sections of the brain responsible for how our minds interpret the world around us can be explained in part scientifically although the science responsible is still in its infancy. Without a brain there would be no mind and therefore no “consciousness”.

I am not sure consciousness is unique to the human species anyway. We already know for examples Elephants appear to mourn death, just because science doesn’t fully understand something doesn’t make it any less valid.

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Sairs73, mooosey88

Cleared2Land wrote:

Ge wrote:

Nemesis wrote:

Didnt know you were interested in the shroud Ge…

I’m not particularly, but with an Irish Catholic father and a English Protestant mother who’s two families detested each other based solely on their religious views I have a passing interest in religion. From what I have read a Jesus did exist, did ‘some’ good things for others in an era when it was unusual but I don’t personally believe he was the son of God because I don’t believe God exists. There is just to much scientific evidence that suggests otherwise, evolution, etc.

Hi Ge, how would you say the existence of human consciousness, self-awareness, creativity, reasoning ability, etc. fits into the theory of evolution? Isn’t mere instinct, which animals rely on, sufficient for survival? It seems that human consciousness, and the ability to reason, appreciate beauty, discover scientific principles, etc. is not necessary for survival and points to something, or someone, outside of ourselves, i.e., God. I’m interested in your thoughts.

If we didnt have the ability to reason, we wouldn’t survive . Reasoning is integral to survival and so are traits like creativity such as designing weapons to kill for food etc. Somebody painting a pretty picture is not evidence of God.

With regards to the shroud, I’ve no doubt that there may have been a wandering trickster called Jesus telling people he was the son of God and that he was crucified like suspected witches were burnt back in a bygone era. What does it prove exactly other than someone called Jesus and how does this tie in with being the son of God? If David Blaine existed 300 years ago, he would probably have a cult following with people unable to understand his magic tricks.. the religious argument is if you can’t explain something it’s down to God so was Paul Daniels the second coming for eg?

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Sairs73, Morgan.

“One can’t prove that God doesn’t exist,” professor Stephen Hawking told ABC News. “But science makes God unnecessary”

Cleared2Land wrote:

Ancient writers/historians like Josephus, Tacitus, and Paul

I much prefer Carbon dating, how about you?

• This reply was modified 6 years, 10 months ago by  Morgan..