True Alpha, Alpha Wannabe or Bully?

See you Friday orse look forward to it mate

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orson kart

Dear St Alfy, please see Moosey’s answer.

She understood my point far better than you’ve been doing.

I don’t want to get rid of Lorenz. I didn’t know he was a Nazi when I first read his book – I just remember the leopard staring out at me from the cover of On Aggression, and disliking the arguments intensely.

Lorenz isn’t right or wrong. He’s controversial. he put forward an interpretation, which carries a lot of weight and is partly convincing to everybody. That, I assume, is why he got his Nobel Prize.

But having a Nobel prize doesn’t mean that you#re right. IT’s an acknowledgement of his contribution to his subject. Many deeply disagreed with him

He regretted his membership of the Nazi party, which began in 1936? I bet he did! But part of the controversy arises form criticism from scientists and others that his idea of the alpha-male had a distinct Nazi echo. I pointed to Nietzsche’s ideal of the ubermensch as lying behind it, band I’m far from alone  in thinking that Nietzsche had a strong impact on Nazi thinking.

I don’t want to replace the Lorenz view of the alpha-male. I’m using it as a base for criticising the alpha-male.

Some here – Laine and yourself among others – seem to really like the idea. That’s fine. No law against you doing that.

I offered an alternative type of man which I preferred. not the alpha male. It’s an idea put forward by Gerry earlier on this thread, and it was expressed in th song, My Guy, by mary Wells.

There Nietzsche and Mary Wells. A nice combo of the simple and the intellectual, whihc is what I like *nods to Moosey’s perception about my style

thanks very much kenty  very sporting of you I wont be binge drinking or indulging in any morocon woodbines I swear

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dilligaff

The Divine Love wrote:

rudeboy wrote:

Alpha male status has nothing to do with sex

Hey Chubby x Are you serious? If you are serious then you disappoint me. For a quasi-intellectual that you appear, even you should know the basic principles of Evolution and natural selection, especially as you don’t strike me much as a man of religion. What you are proposing is actually anti Evolutionary biology and natural selection. Dont be so stupid.

rudeboy wrote:

Alpha male status has nothing to do with sex

That was the only point you picked out of many I raised. Does that mean you agreed with all the other points only not this one? Of course Alpha male status has plenty to do with sex. Please note I made it very clear in my post,. “When we look at other primates” I would like to assume that you know what a primate is, and as human beings, we too are primates. Furthermore, I assume you know that all primates will have the same basic behaviour patterns, as do canines and felines. A dog is not a fox or a wolf, but they are all canines. A domesticated cat is not a cheetah or a tiger, but they are all felines. So my terminology of primates naturally covers monkeys, apes and human beings. I would like to recommend a couple of videos that will explain it for you, as I can’t be writing a 10,000 word essay for you. The idea being you will learn about primates, and the importance of sex and reproduction to the alpha male primate, and female for that matter. And why not have a look at wikipedias definition of an Alpha, and please look out for how sex and reproduction is so fundamentally related and intertwined.

<iframe id=”fitvid0″ src=”https://www.youtube.com/embed/Z8_zVRC5AaI?feature=oembed” width=”300″ height=”150″ frameborder=”0″ allowfullscreen=”allowfullscreen” data-mce-fragment=”1″></iframe>

<iframe id=”fitvid1″ src=”https://www.youtube.com/embed/6ckinOhdtDw?feature=oembed” width=”300″ height=”150″ frameborder=”0″ allowfullscreen=”allowfullscreen” data-mce-fragment=”1″></iframe>

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha_(ethology) From a previous post written by Sophia, a woman: ” Women almost always look for Alpha guys for fun and, also, for long-term relationships and even marriage. A bully although he may succeed for a while will in the end show his true colours and that gorgeous woman who fell for him initially will dump him and goes off to find a genuine Alpha Male.” I wonder what she means by “fun”. Have a nice day x

Evolution as you describe it has very little to do with a coined phrase used by certain individuals to describe others which is entirely subjective and based upon their own ideals of what constitutes an ” alpha male” which is clearly flawed both in objectivity and logic.

Thousands of years ago , a stereotypical “alpha male” would be the biggest/ strongest male able to defend himself/ his family from potential predators with basic barbarism the only character trait deemed to be “attractive” or worthy of being respected in a world of few laws other than kill or be killed. We now exist in a world where those characteristics are viewed by the majority as actions from a criminal underclass creating a myriad of different labels for these individuals ranging from psychotic to psychopathic to simply evil describing what would have been viewed as the ultimate alpha male in times gone by.  Now it’s generally accepted a 5ft 2 pale faced business man who trembles whenever the wind gets up earning 100 thousand per year as a city trader is a superior “specimen ” of man contrary to the basic barbarian in a society which shuns violence ( at least publically) and welcomes materialistic needs of children coming from a responsible wage earner outweighing more natural innate behaviour … which of these is an “alpha male”? One that is physically weak but able to provide a better quality of life to his family or the stronger poverty stricken savage? It could be argued an alpha males role is to flourish under whatever circumstances he is operating under so being able to generate money by becoming less “masculine” is surely preferable to the modern day ape banging his chest sleeping rough in a subway.

All views and labels are transient anyway , what was deemed acceptable behaviour 100 years ago isn’t now and the same will apply to future generations.  You talk about natural selection but that isn’t just about procreation, it’s about being able to survive in whatever environment you are in, which in todays world focuses more on social/ intellectual interaction facilitating an improved lifestyle with better jobs etc instead of killing off potential threats as humans have in past times.  Are you saying then for eg, a man who chooses not to have kids is less of an alpha male than a spotty teenager who just shags anything with no inhibitions lurking inside his tiny mind spreading his seed recklessly with no consequences contrary to a balanced , logical decision not to have kids? What about a man who is with a woman in a monogamous relationship where she is either past the menopause or medically can’t have kids… does he suddenly stop being an alpha male because he won’t father more children? Surely your definition of an “alpha male” is defined on better parameters than if someone is getting their end away or not, or is that the main criteria?

The charming video you posted about us evolving from monkeys may well be true if you subscribe to darwinism but the emphasis is on the word ” evolved” . Just because many have decided to shun away from being sperm donors /picking up STDs or starring in the Jeremy Kyle show spreading their muck around does not make them inferior or any less of an ” alpha male” due to brains becoming more developed and as a species being able to take a more balanced rational decision on what they want to do in their life away from their ancestors swinging from trees.

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Bemused Bystander, laine1, mooosey88, The Divine Love, sceptical guy