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I HAVE NOT SMEARED OR RIDICULED you!
If you think that some have then why are you not challenging them instead of quoting my posts. Those comments are best treated with the contempt they deserve.
I am certainly NOT moaning either!
You make a lot of valid points no one is denying that but YOU aren’t going to change a darn thing here now are you ???
You don’t have the answers anymore than the rest of us here do is what I am saying nothing more. #-o
I’m not accusing you of smear or ridicule, Ms Touchy Arc, but others. I’ve quoted them, and they seem to have stopped for the moment.
I have proposed provisional answers, and I am challenging, and will continue to challenge, the prejudice which has dominated this discussion.
Answer my points before making a cheap exit as the discussion moves forward, if you can see beyond the horizon of your own opinions.
I’m not stopping you coming or going from this discussion – that’s up to you – but it’s an important discussion and looks to be ongoing because of continuing events. I’ll try to make my points fair but hard as long as I am able.
who would scep?
Open borders anywhere is a recipe for disaster not an answer
well, in the long run, it does, Trapper.
The EU doesn’t have open borders, and refugees are arriving without legal sanction. But they are protected by the UN High Commission on Refugees. Their distribution throughout the EU depends on agreement, and the UK should be working hard with Germany and Sweden for a fair distribution. The problem may still be too much because of the scale of the crisis in Libya and Afghanistan as well as Syria/Iraq (these countries are starting to become meaningless).
But open borders in the long run is essential for our prosperity – I hate to get technical, but google ‘the law of comparative advantage’. It’s standard teaching in all Economics courses, and goes back to the early 19th century when it was formulated by David Ricardo, one of the founders of the science. It doesn’t work in all sorts of ways because of various factors, which I can elaborate if you want to go into it, but in the long run it’s essential.
The GATT talks since 1947 and up to today are based on that law, on opening up borders to trade, capital and labour.
The false belief that many people have – that someone from outside taking a job is taking a job away for the person in your country – is just that, false. Google ‘the lump of labour fallacy’ for the details, as they are technical. The false belief goes back to a vicar called Malthus in the 18th century, and was exposed (again by Ricardo) long before reality exposed his (Malthus’s) beliefs as just plain wrong.
Putting 100,000 people lets say, into any country is a drain on that country economically at least. Do we just give them housing ? And that isn’t taking away from people in any country’s needs ? Do we give them all benefits when we’re cutting benefits left right and centre. Do we give them all NHS treatment when the NHS is already at breaking point. And the people of that country are going to say “fine we don’t mind”.
And these economic views are just that, views, unproven theories if you likeComparative Advantage Definition
The ability of a firm or individual to produce goods and/or services at a lower opportunity cost than other firms or individuals. A comparative advantage gives a company the ability to sell goods and services at a lower price than its competitors and realize stronger sales margins.Simply reads to me as cheap labour.. the less a firm can pay in wages the better the advantage over other firms
I’d argue again that we should be first improving conditions where the refugees have already getting out of Syria e.g. in Lesbos, then perhaps they wouldn’t be sitting on rail tracks trying to stop trains and jumping on boats to get elsewhere given they’ve already flown a war zone. The international community could then look at removing more refugees safely to these “enclaves” then we can deal with the tricky permanent relocation
I get the fact we need to put our own house in order….unfortunately that is never going to happen is it?…the NHS has been going down the pan (no pun intended) for years…houseing shortage has been a growing issue since the selling off of council houses…..so basically we will never ever even in 100 yrs get our house in order….lets face it we as a country are up shiit creek and have been for a while…every country has its own economic problems….including these countries who are taking in refugees..
However….an example for instance…..if somthing catastrophic happened in the UK that lead to many many people fleeing to another country for safety……would we all think its a valid argument to make sure they had their house in order before they took any of us on? Like hell we would…we would expect in this day and age humanity….think nothing of the fact that another country could take any number of people from the UK…
That point maybe be a good argument but it still does not change peoples views Scep…..if someone will not get properly treated for cancer…or a child suffers due to not having an opersation due to cutbacks….it will still be wrong in the eyes of British people who have paid into the system, when they see their money spent on housing refugees….sad..wrong..inhumane…selfish….whatever…but fact@trapper wrote:
Putting 100,000 people lets say, into any country is a drain on that country economically at least. Do we just give them housing ? And that isn’t taking away from people in any country’s needs ? Do we give them all benefits when we’re cutting benefits left right and centre. Do we give them all NHS treatment when the NHS is already at breaking point. And the people of that country are going to say “fine we don’t mind”.
And these economic views are just that, views, unproven theories if you likeComparative Advantage Definition
The ability of a firm or individual to produce goods and/or services at a lower opportunity cost than other firms or individuals. A comparative advantage gives a company the ability to sell goods and services at a lower price than its competitors and realize stronger sales margins.Simply reads to me as cheap labour.. the less a firm can pay in wages the better the advantage over other firms
I’d argue again that we should be first improving conditions where the refugees have already getting out of Syria e.g. in Lesbos, then perhaps they wouldn’t be sitting on rail tracks trying to stop trains and jumping on boats to get elsewhere given they’ve already flown a war zone. The international community could then look at removing more refugees safely to these “enclaves” then we can deal with the tricky permanent relocation
First, what I see this thread about is what kind of society we want to live in. This is more important than any technical question of economics.
One scientist asking for research into space exploration was asked at a congressional committee how his research would help the defence of the country. He replied that it would help make a country worth defending.
A society which is worth defending is a generous society which puts human care first and foremost, There are obvious limits to what casn be done, but i the end that is what it’s about. The cold indifference to human suffering shown by some on this thread isn’t any part of a society which is worth defending. I do’t accuse Trapper or arc of this, but wonder why you you tolerate it and don’t question it. Arc spends all her time telling me to stop banging on about the topic rather than criticising the indifference to life expressed by some.
Secondly, I fully sympathise with your hostility to low wages, for which we need a strong trade union movement.
But you seem to have picked up the wrong definition of comparative advantage. It’s a law of international trade – check this out – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_advantage and read it in terms of international trade. I don’t fully agree wiht Ricardo on this for various reasons, but in general terms it’s an excellent account of why we should work for open borders. Gradually.
@kent f OBE wrote:
I get the fact we need to put our own house in order….unfortunately that is never going to happen is it?…the NHS has been going down the pan (no pun intended) for years…houseing shortage has been a growing issue since the selling off of council houses…..so basically we will never ever even in 100 yrs get our house in order….lets face it we as a country are up shiit creek and have been for a while…every country has its own economic problems….including these countries who are taking in refugees..
However….an example for instance…..if somthing catastrophic happened in the UK that lead to many many people fleeing to another country for safety……would we all think its a valid argument to make sure they had their house in order before they took any of us on? Like hell we would…we would expect in this day and age humanity….think nothing of the fact that another country could take any number of people from the UK…
That point maybe be a good argument but it still does not change peoples views Scep…..if someone will not get properly treated for cancer…or a child suffers due to not having an opersation due to cutbacks….it will still be wrong in the eyes of British people who have paid into the system, when they see their money spent on housing refugees….sad..wrong..inhumane…selfish….whatever…but facta good post Ms K.
You’re absolutely right about the house being put in order.
But there are some people who will always grudge help to refugees, and some who will always welocme it. The important thing is that it is carefully explained why we take in an agreed quota of refugees, what that number may be, so that the majority of people recognise that it is both sensible and humane.
I don’t know what that number is, but it’s going to have to be part of a EU decision. The EU needs to be much more democratic (it’s a nightmare bureaucratic despotism at the moment, whihc most of us can agree on),
This crisis is forcing the EU as well as the UK to live up to its responsibilities
I like your observation that people in the UK may one day have to flee this country – a nuclear catastrophe such as happened in Japan a couple of years ago isn’t outside the realm of reality. Let’s hop we remain safe and sound in the face of changing technology in teh world.
But whatever the EU decide you may not agree..then what? We are never going to make everyone happy….if we make the majority happy does that make it right for the minority?
Say we take in a huge number now….and in a few yrs time another country needs us to take in more…..when does it end…..I wish it was a simple solution….
You may say we need to deal with the present and not speculate the future….but that is what everyone does… in politics…in our own families…we have to look to the future to make educated guesses for what we do in the present
Like I said…I wish it were simple
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