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when Germany says it can absorb 800,000, that means they can afford it.
Money isn’t limitless, but if we can afford to nvade and bomb them, we cna afford to put up with savng the victims.
Trapper, you do two things. One is continually to put out anything whihc doesn’t involve the UK shifting its backside, no matter how ill=thought out. We certainly can’t afford to stop the boats in the first place, if you can think of it, any more than the Luftwaffe could stop the boats at Dunkirk. If it were physically possible, then the refugees would still keep coming for one reason – it’s no longer possible to live in Syria. It’s become a nightmare, and the Great Powers are making it worse than ever.
Syria has large gas resources – ISIS controls the largest gas facility in the country, and in a weird quid pro quo does a mafia-style trade-off with Assad – whereby Assad pays ISIS for the gas. The workers are beaten – one was reported killed in front of his mates -if they are suspected of not being wholeheartedly in favour of ISIS.
Wouldn’t you want to get out – by any means possible??
A second thing is that you only think in terms of the uk – like me, me, me, how;s it going to affect me, let’s condemn these people to death because it may cause me some discomfort?
We – the UK – cannot handle this crisis we’ve partly caused. Working with the EU – and the USA – is needed – if we can’t stop them being plunged into desperation, we can at least alleviate the problems.. Or is it impossible for anyone but Germany these days to think in terms of anything but the Big Me?
Yeah & in an ideal world there would be no wars , no poverty, no fear, everybody would live along side each other in houses with roses around the door !!!
Sad fact ….. Real life isn’t like that EVER ANYWHERE.
There is no doubt that compassion & help is need but WE ARE NOT GOING TO MAKE IT ALL OK ON THESE BOARDS.
Personal digs at each other because some chose to look at the issue for a realistic angle as opposed to an idealistic angle isn’t gonna to change it either . :)
Ill thought out in YOUR opinion but never mind. Warfare has moved on from 1940, and what would you have the great powers do now, nothing but accept most of Syrias population ? What the great powers should have done in the first place was keep their fucking noses out of other peoples lives, it never was for the people but for political or strategic gain (or oil).
Open borders is ill though out (in my opinion) we can’t afford it, and it is likely to cause ill feeling within some communities.
Fact is I don’t have the answers but neither do you, no one has any easy answers that work. I’m merely putting forward counter arguments, I’m not saying we shouldn’t take any, I’m not saying it’s not our fault in part.
As for getting out by any means possible, aren’t some (maybe most) of the people who have drowned already got out. The conditions where they are, e.g. Turkey, may be bad maybe the first move is to do something about that then work out what happens next.@trapper wrote:
As for getting out by any means possible, aren’t some (maybe most) of the people who have drowned already got out.
could you explain what you mean by that phrase??
The people were already out of Syria not necessarily living in decent conditions I’ll concede but separate from the war zone if you like The poor 2 yr old was in Turkey I believe The immediate priority should be to greatly improve conditions in say Lesbos for instance surely that’s not difficult with international pooling of resources then deal with individual cases I
This is not about idealistic versus realistic policies.
It’s about the attitude to refugees.
There is a callous mean streak among many in britian today, shown by the cruel indifference tot eh refugees plight.
It was that which provoked Jen’s anger, and mine too.
It;s not the only steak in Britain, I’m glad to say, as Kenty has noted.
Open borders is what it’s all about in the end. It’s the only way in which the civil war between peoples and cities can be ended, and it’s a way towards prosperity, as is recognised by GATT. But it’s obviously not on at the moment. It has to be worked towards gradually.
The EU doesn’t have open borders to non-EU citizens. But refugees have long been ecognised as special – an emergency condition. A crisis like this is not none any country can handle – it has to be an EU solution, and the USA has to be brought in too. Turkey is involved in EU negotiations, not nice ones, as the problem presses.
Lesbos is a humanitarian catastrophe. You can talk about genuine overcrowding there, and help is needed to get the refugees off the island and into the EU.
The UK needs to take a lead, and 20000 is a pathetic figure,. The bishops say 80000 – and I say that at least. We need to take a lead in forcing the EU to sort itself out, in cahoots with Germany and Sweden.
But as far as these boars are concerned, it’s the cold indifference to human life whihc strikjes me among a number of people. Anywhere but here is the feeling. Well, it’s not the only streak in Britain.
Refugees are welcome here
Again …. In your opinion scep which you are of course entitled to.
Doesn’t mean we all have to share it.
Before anyone says heartless cow (which I’m not) there is no easy solutions to this issue BUT I think the UK needs to put its own house in order.
You’d give a room to a refugee scep but how about one of our own war veterans or homeless poverty stricken families that our government won’t help ?
Yes it IS dreadful but you are NOT going to change it banging on, on this thread.
:)
@Arc en wrote:
Again …. In your opinion scep which you are of course entitled to.
Doesn’t mean we all have to share it.
Before anyone says heartless cow (which I’m not) there is no easy solutions to this issue BUT I think the UK needs to put its own house in order.
You’d give a room to a refugee scep but how about one of our own war veterans or homeless poverty stricken families that our government won’t help ?
Yes it IS dreadful but you are NOT going to change it banging on, on this thread.
:)
Why must I not be allowed a view? I have every right to argue my case, and if you don’t want to hear it ignore me or the thread. It’s a sign that my view is not one you or some of your chums want to hear if you resort to such a cheap point.
It’s called a debate, arc, or is an attempt at such. With all its problems, it’s one of the key parts of free speech and democracy – it’s fulfills as important a part here as the jokes, football and RIP posts – get used to it.
Of course we must put our own house in order as well. What gets me is the indifference towards refugees often goes hand-in-hand with an indifference to the fate of the sick, benefit claimants and the unemployed in the UK and the EU. When I fist came to jc all you could hear was sarcasm to people who were online rather than working, or put-downs about who owned their house or whether it was a council house. There was resistance to that view, as well, or it would have become the right-wing anti-immigrant, anti-refugee, anti-poverty site that some would like it to become.
We’re one of the wealthiest economies in the world, and it’s a disgrace that child poverty and homelessness should increase, benefit claimants be pilloried and the ill attacked.
The deficit is used to attack every attempt made to defend people, but it continues to grow. All these measures are taken, and a cruel indifference show to refugees, to reduce taxes and bungle education and welfare.
Putting our own house in order goes hand in hand with our attitude to helping refugees in the face of a terrible crisis, part of which our militarism in Iraq and Libya has caused. It’s an attitude based on care and help, not bomb and invade. It’s an attitude which involves working with the EU against the wave of xenophobia there which has led some German anti-refugee speakers last week to bemoan the absence of concentration camps to deal with them.
There is a different attitude in our country growing, after years when the mean-gut streak was in the ascendant. I’m hopeful for the first time in decades.
scep you are – I have already said you are entitled to a view same as everyone else.
BUT
Just because we don’t all share the same view as you regarding certain aspects doesn’t make anyone wrong or right.
Its called debate & accepting the fact that views differ is all part of the debate process.
I get your point of views but it’s not that simple & banging on about it here wont change anything in the grand scale of things will it ?
If everyone had ignored this thread it would of died on it’s ar5e weeks ago!
You seem to take the comments as a personal attack on you which it’s not.;-)Who’s denying THAT?
Not me.
But someone who argues their case strongly makes others define their case.
I notice that you don’t criticise the people who come on with smears and ridicule. Or the idiot who wrote a weird series of unanswered posts which ended with me being called a lair not to be trusted because I wouldn’t tell him where I lived in Bristol in 1975. What sort of debate is that?
I make serious points, and I punch my weight.
Instead of moaning about the fact that I believe in what I say, answer them. Now that would be a debate.
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