The Future of the UK

@panda12 wrote:

However, my main concern is that should we leave the EU we will become isolated and they will impose high, Protectionist trade tariffs upon us which will cripple us and cause the cost of living to rise to such an extent that we no longer live but exist.

This is the view that Sceptical Guy, Gordon Brown, momentary loss and Tony Blair hold on to. It’s the fear factor that holds no water and is designed to persuade the public to override their gut feelings about the corruptness of the EU.

@terry wrote:

@momentaryloss wrote:

It therefore comes down to ideology.

In reality it comes down to profit and loss and the EU is (always has been and always will be) a trading loss for the UK.

It’s all very well to say we can’t survive without being members of the EU, but that is a completely ridiculous standpoint to have.

China isn’t a member of the EU and they are major traders with all European nations.

Membership of the EU is not a prerequisite for trade and our future well-being is dependant on abandoning the political union we have with the EU.

Interesting selective quote.

What I said was “It therefore comes down to ideology and whether we believe the rest of the world wishes to give us some kind of special status if we are no longer tarred with the EU brush. That is possible. I just don’t think it is very likely.”

Everything has an element of ideology. I am an internationalist. I believe that there are good practical reasons for that, one of them being reducing the chances of war and social discord.

Wanting the UK to stand alone and negotiate with like minded states elsewhere in the world is of course a Realpolitik/balance of power ideological stance, akin to the one we took throughout most of the nineteenth century and right up until 1914 when we reappraised our world view. We have vacillated between a balance of power and internationalist approach ever since then.

The problem is that we are now too small to stand alone as a wheeler dealer country any more. We can’t play with the big boys as we are not one, and with the emerging economies in the east and south America we will never be one again.

The economic and political situation now means that allegiance with Europe is our best bet both for international influence, whether you take an international cooperation or balance of power approach.

Choosing to cut our ties with Europe is a one hand game, based on an incorrect view of both our political influence and our economic strength. Europe would not be punitive with us. We would just lose the benefits of being part of the club. The rest of the world are not our natural friends. Indeed because of our imperial history they are, by instinct, quite the opposite.

You are advocating a realpolitik approach (which in itself is an ideological stance whether you perceive it that way or not). I believe that ditching Europe is not even an effective realpolitik approach as we would suffer adrift in an ocean of big sharks.

China btw is big enough to be a trading block all by itself and may shortly have an economy bigger than the whole of the EU. It trades with all the major European nations precisely because it has trade deals with them as EU members. I doubt it will want to make a special case for lil ol Britain, unless of course we can offer them a competitive advantage. And for that we would need Chinese wage levels. Great but a recipe for social disaster.

If we aint doing it for the welfare of our population, what are we doing it for?