The Future of the UK

@j_in_france wrote:

the days of the world being painted red are long gone – sadly GB is now clinging to the shirt tails of Europe and quickly losing that grip

well, I wouldn’t want to grip those shirt-tails too tightly at the moment – the possibilities of an almighty Euro-crash are still there…if that happens, the UK economy will be flattened anyway.

But the UK has always played a short-sighted game on Europe. Straight after the war, we were in the vanguard of attempts at European unity (Churchill even called for a United States of Europe), but since then we have joined everythng late and half-heartedly.

I’m worried that politicians playing for votes by appealing to the anti-Euro feeling might backlash – and in the short term lead to us paying more out of our own pockets if and when an annual budget is imposed next spring.

@terry wrote:

We make a loss out of Europe, importing far more than we export. Our monthly trade deficit with EU nations is £5 billion so to suggest we actually need to trade with the EU to make a living is grossly misleading.

https://www.uktradeinfo.com/Statistics/EUOverseasTrade/Pages/EuOTS.aspx

And our membership of the EU itself costs us £20,000 per minute.

What we really need is a choice, but the three main political parties stand shoulder to shoulder over Europe and that – in terms of democracy – isn’t good.

oh break it down, man.

which EU countries do we run a deficit against, and why? which EU countries do we run a surplus against, and why? Is it trade or services we’re taling about? These blanket stats tell us sweet fa when it comes to the advantages and disadvantages of EU membership – you’re trying to pull the wool over your own eyes as much as ours.

Germany has a trade surplus because it is the most powerful manufacturing country in the EU. That surplus wont’ change whether we’re in or out.

UK has a (rising) surplus of payments from services – being out of the EU will affect that, as EU rules will shift banking to Frankfurt – there’s a tendency that way anyway.

It says nothing for or against EU membership in itself.

well, you said Labour’s attitude to the EU was changing.

That’s not how I read it, as both Milibands stress that Labour is still pro-EU.

Labour also opposed the Maastricht Treaty in the early 90’s under John Smith on the same opportunistic basis. Smith was more strongly pro-EU than most in his party, but he took a political calcuation. Miliband is taking the same tactics-above-strategy approach, but in very different circumstances, and I just hope it doesn’t backfire.

Voting for cuts in spending on the EU is not good – his brother David is using this vote to call for cuts in spending in the UK too. A false class war against 18th and 19th cetnruy privilege which is favoured in Labour circles can be a cover for a cruel class war against the poor and vulnerable by both parties.

@terry wrote:

@sceptical guy wrote:

These blanket stats tell us sweet fa when it comes to the advantages and disadvantages of EU membership.

It’s tells us that we have a yearly trading deficit of £60 billion plus a yearly membership fee of £19 billion. Our population has increased by about 2 million too and that has impacted on jobs and the welfare system.

Is there actually a benefit to being in the EU, because if there is I fail to see what it is.

would it be different outside the EU?

You’re leaping on a bald statistic – it tells us nothing about Britian’s relationship with the EU other than the fact that it runs a trading deficit with some countries (esp Germany, which is a stronger economy). We would anyway. This has nothing to do with being in or out of the EU.

Joining the EU is not a zero-sum game. It’s a question of the size of the pie as much as its distirbution. Would the pie be smaller if the UK left is the relevant question.