Boards Index General discussion Art, poetry, music and film Stories of Lost Israel in Folklore

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  • #10029

    I have a book with the above title which I’ve just started reading.
    It looks at Sleeping Beauty, Cinderella, Hansel & Grethel, Jack & the Beanstalk etc. . .

    Folklore, like Heraldry, didn’t just get there.
    The genius of the Anglo-Saxon folklore lies in the choice of symbols, which in some cases coincides with bible stories and prophecies.

    People that believe these people are the lost, scattered tribes of Israel will not be surprised at this.
    Like other cultures the people used stories to entertain and educate their children and adults about their identity . . . they are not nobodies going nowhere, there is a God and he has a plan . .

    Many assume that the Grimm Brothers were the authors of Fairy Stories but they only wrote down for posterirtt the old folk tales of the people they sat with around the open hearth.

    Snow White (story here)
    This was Walt Disney’s first choice for a cartoon story.
    The jealous step-mother sends her away with the huntsman into the woods to be killed, but the huntsman takes pity on her and she makes her way to the cottage of the 7 dwarfs, who carry candles.

    Because of idolatry and general disobedience, the 10-tribed house of Israel was taken captive by the Assyrians who didn’t kill them but allowed them to escape through the wooded Northern Europe, migrating eventually to the North-West coastlands and Britain.

    Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.(Isaiah 1:18 )

    Moreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime (2 Sam.7:10)

    the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days (Rev. 12:6)

    The Isles of Britain are famed for their cottages and Revelation 2 & 3 speak of the 7 churches with their candlesticks.

    The church had been growing since it spread following persecution by the Jews and Romans.
    By the time the Normans & Norsemen (bearing the wolf symbol of Benjamin) arrived in 1066, the church was already established.
    These peoples made their new home in Britain, like Snow White settled in with the dwarfs.

    The jealous queen is angry to find that the mirror (the bible) says she is not as beautiful as Snow White so she disguises herself as an old peddler-woman and while the dwarfs are away, beguiles Snow White with a show of pretty things. She buys laces and allows the old woman to lace her up so that she falls down as though dead.

    In 668 AD Pope Vitalin sends Theodore of Tarsus to England as Archbishop of Canterbury, with all his “pretty things” – the Pomp and Ceremony.
    Church services are in Latin and the followers become spiritually bound up.

    The dwarfs return and when Henry VIII replaced the Pope as head of the church in England (1509) the strings were loosed.
    The Acts of Reformation also stopped the flow of money out of England into the Pope’s pockets and the new prayer book was written in English under Henry VI.

    The scheming queen then uses a poisonous comb. Hair represents spiritual strength (Judges 16).
    The comb is a part of the head-dress of women in Spain.
    In 1553 Edward VI died and his sister Mary Tudor, “Bloody Mary” took the throne.
    Britain again came under the dominion of the Pope. To strengthen the Roman Church, Mary married Philip II of Spain, Protestants and their bibles were burned.

    Mary’s death and replacement with Elizabeth I again revived England.
    Snow white is advised to stay indoors and let no-one in again.
    Britain’s detached aloofness from Continental wars.

    But the queen gets aggressive and forces Britain into WWI & II
    Snow White survives so the Queen brings a poinsonous polished red apple which she herself eats to present harmlessness.
    The deception takes the form of outwardly preaching the bible but not having the power thereof (2 Tim 3:5).
    The dwarfs could not revive Snow White from this sleep because she is spiritually seduced into thinking she is ok, there is no place for repentance.

    So Snow White remains asleep in a glass case, identifiable, fulfilling the prophecies.
    Until the Prince sees her and the piece of poisoned apple in her mouth gets dislodged and she comes alive.

    The wedding follows, even the wicked woman is invited but uttered a curse, and was so wretched, so utterly wretched that she knew not what to do. At first she would not go to the wedding at all, but she had no peace, and had to go to see the young queen. And when she went in she recognized Snow White, and she stood still with rage and fear, and could not stir. But iron slippers had already been put upon the fire, and they were brought in with tongs, and set before her. Then she was forced
    to put on the red-hot shoes, and dance until she dropped down dead.

    Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.
    And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all. (Rev.18:20-21)

    #330917

    Jack and the beanstalk

    I suggest you read the story first and have a think what the symbolism is.
    Some internet accounts leave out detail, you can find audio cartoon renderings, such as here

    Jack is a shortened form of the name Jacob, so he is a type of the whole house of Jacob, the children of Israel (Jacob’s name was changed to Israel).
    Jack is an Englishman with a particular smell / blood.
    “Fe fi fo fum, I smell the blood of an Englishman”.
    A distinct, separated people who maintain their identity.

    England probably derives from Engl-land as it was settles originally the the Angles who were 2 brother peoples, the Angae and the AEglae, the latterv being derived from the hebrew word Eglah meaning heifer of the wild ox, antelope or unicorn, the tribal symbol of Ephraim, the main tribe of the house of Israel, indeed Israel generally were often referred to as “Ephraim”. “John Bull” is still a symbol of the English and the lion and unicordn speak of their Israelitish origins.

    God brought him forth out of Egypt; he hath as it were the strength of an unicorn: he shall eat up the nations his enemies, and shall break their bones, and pierce them through with his arrows.
    He couched, he lay down as a lion, and as a great lion: who shall stir him up? Blessed is he that blesseth thee, and cursed is he that curseth thee. (Num:24:8-9)

    (the word Saxon can be traced using the Behistun Rock to be Isaac’s sons)

    Once upon a time there was a poor widow who lived with her son Jack in a little house.
    Their wealth consisted solely of a milking cow. When the cow had grown too old, the mother
    sent Jack to sell it. On his way to the market, the boy met a stranger.

    The sons of Israel had been driven to Egypt by famine and later became poor slaves in Egypt,
    symbolised by the (sacred) cow.
    The stranger is Moses who had fled from his people but returned.
    He commands them to exchange the worship of Egypt (the old cow) for the magic beans – the wonder working God.

    Now we don’t have anything and we are even poorer.” Jack felt guilty and sad.
    “Only a fool would exchange a cow for five beans,” his mother fumed.
    Then, at the height of her exasperation, she threw the five beans out of the window and sent Jack to bed with no dinner.

    Initially Pharoah punishes them for wanting to worship their God and makes them work harder “bricks without straw”.
    The Israelites accuse Moses of bringing them trouble not blessing (Exodus 5)

    Jack is a bow, showing how we must have childlike faith to believe in God not just what our eyes see.
    Just as Jacob slept and saw a ladder leading to heaven, so while Jack slept the beanstalk grew.

    And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it. (Gen. 28:12)

    Israel left Egypt and headed toward the promised land, God “magically” providing for them with small round manna, quail and water, and protecting them. They climb materially and spiritually, into the land of milk and honey.

    I am lost. May I have something to eat? I am very hungry.” The woman, who did not have children, looked at him a little more kindly: “Come in, quick. I will give you a bowl of milk. But be careful because my husband, the ogre, eats children. If you hear him coming, hide at once.”

    Jack meets a maiden who knows about him:-

    “Good morning, Jack,” said she; and Jack was more surprised than ever; for he could not imagine how she had learned his name. But he soon found that she knew a great deal more about him than his name; for she told him how, when he was quite a little baby, his father, a gallant knight, had been slain by the giant who lived in yonder castle, and how his mother, in order to save Jack, had been obliged to promise never to tell the secret.
    “All that the giant has is yours,” she said, and then disappeared quite as suddenly as she came.

    Later in their history, Nebuchnezzar took the temple artifacts (along with the Israelites remaining in Judah) to Babylon and set up a giant image of himself which was to be worshipped. He got the idea of the image from the dream that Daniel interpreted.

    And all the vessels of the house of God, great and small, and the treasures of the house of the Lord, and the treasures of the king, and of his princes; all these he brought to Babylon. (2Chron. 36:18 )

    Meanwhile in the story, the tall old woman says to the Ogre:-
    Sit down and I’ll make your dinner.” The ogre, still grumbling,
    filled a jug of wine and drank it all with his dinner.
    After having counted again and again all the gold pleces of his treasure, the ogre fell asleep

    Belshazzar, whiles he tasted the wine, commanded to bring the golden and silver vessels which his father Nebuchadnezzar had taken out of the temple which was in Jerusalem; that the king, and his princes, his wives, and his concubines, might drink therein. (Dan. 5:2)

    Jack escapes more than once. The 10-tribed house of Israel were already deported by the Assyrians before the Babylonians came, then God decreed that the Jews (the house of Judah) should be let go ion the time of Cyrus

    The Enchanted/singing harp is of course the Harp of David (also on our Heraldry), symbolising the Throneof David which escaped to the British Isles.
    Britain would have to deal with the giant kingdoms. “Babylon” is not just the old Babylon of ancient time.

    Who is the old woman who warns and shelters Jack but who seems to be in bondage to the ogre?
    This fits the Old Testament, The Law, the carnal commandments which have a wisdom and prophetic edge, but are not salvation.
    Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
    For this Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answers to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. (Gal. 4:24-5)

    * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

    For Jack (poor natural man) to become Israel (rule with God), he must believe in the magic beans (God’s word) and climb the beanstalk (walk with God), then kill the ogre (overcome), or be killed (be overcome with darkness).
    No man can enter into a strong man’s house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house. (Mark 3:27)

    But if we really believe in Jesus, the enemy is already slain:-
    I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. (Luke 10:18 )

    Who are you like, Jack, or the Ogre?

    And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire” (Matt. 3:10)

    And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all. (Rev.18:21)

    #330918

    sounds interesting hisnibbs i will get round to reading it all soon, ive only glanced over it so far as i am at work really lol

    #330919

    I would liked to have seen a few responses to this, but suspect that the biblical references probably made people uncomfortable and put them off.

    The basic premise is quite sound. We were all indoctrinated in these stories at an early age and they shaped our way of thinking, whether we like that fact or not. Classic fairy tales are of course absolutely steeped in mythology. Before they were recorded for posterity by the Brothers Grimm they had existed in all European cultures, and had cascaded down from our ancestors; as stories told in the evening by the fireside, for awe-struck children to then dream upon.

    You are reading this in a language that belongs to the same Indo-European family as that which the Old Testament was written in, and so it doesn’t take a great leap of faith to make a connection there. But then of course biblical mythology is drawn from somewhere else. All evaporates in the mist of time eventually; but still, very interesting…………

    #330920

    I feel like Im in an English lit lesson, its all making me frown.

    My friend who is German had never heard the “I saw a mouse” song before she moved to England, and she still dont get it. I dunno what thats got to do with the thread but its one of those lil musical stories ya know? I saw a mouse, where, there on the stairs, where on the stairs right there.

    Fancy never hearing that till you were a grown up, thats proper wrong!

    #330921

    @toybulldog wrote:

    I would liked to have seen a few responses to this, but suspect that the biblical references probably made people uncomfortable and put them off.

    The basic premise is quite sound. We were all indoctrinated in these stories at an early age and they shaped our way of thinking, whether we like that fact or not. Classic fairy tales are of course absolutely steeped in mythology. Before they were recorded for posterity by the Brothers Grimm they had existed in all European cultures, and had cascaded down from our ancestors; as stories told in the evening by the fireside, for awe-struck children to then dream upon.

    You are reading this in a language that belongs to the same Indo-European family as that which the Old Testament was written in, and so it doesn’t take a great leap of faith to make a connection there. But then of course biblical mythology is drawn from somewhere else. All evaporates in the mist of time eventually; but still, very interesting…………

    mythology, dreamers, story tellers – something we are all capable of, the stories mentioned, the fairy stories, the wonderful worlds you can take your children too, enhancing and building there imaginations, my kids used to love the mystical worlds of hans christian anderson and the brothers grimm , just as they loved the characters who magically appeared at story time from me too………its about firing up their imaginations, taking them to worlds of pixies and hobgoblins, taking them to lands where they can be princesses , rule the world, where chocolate flowers exist, where sugar coated mountains melt at their feet, where the good always beats the evil, where witches are melted, where a pair of ruby red slippers can take you home and unltimately dont we meet the good and the evil in adult life, dont we rejoice when sugar coated mountains melt at our feet, dont we feel sad when a baby cries, dont we all wish our mythological fairy tale childhood minds would return sometimes, carry us up on a pink fluffy cloud to lands we could only dream of………

    #330922
    HisNibbs wrote:
    I have a book with the above title which I’ve just started reading.
    It looks at Sleeping Beauty, Cinderella, Hansel & Grethel, Jack & the Beanstalk etc. . .

    Folklore, like Heraldry, didn’t just get there.
    The genius of the Anglo-Saxon folklore lies in the choice of symbols, which in some cases coincides with bible stories and prophecies.

    People that believe these people are the lost, scattered tribes of Israel will not be surprised at this.
    Like other cultures the people used stories to entertain and educate their children and adults about their identity . . . they are not nobodies going nowhere, there is a God and he has a plan . .

    Many assume that the Grimm Brothers were the authors of Fairy Stories but they only wrote down for posterirtt the old folk tales of the people they sat with around the open hearth.

    Of course Hans Christian Anderson wrote down folklore, recorded the stories, did you not see the film nibbs? of course stories are embelished and added to, be it with a magical touch, or with a touch of evil or adventure, to be honest having read your thread, whilst very deep and interesting to those who want to look beyond mystical dragons and other creatures I apologise tis not for me….. i do have to admit to wondering at first if this train of thought started at one of those late night sessions at the end of a very alcohol fuelled evenings we all have…….. sure as hell sounds a bit like a conversation I would start lol, given the right ‘stragglers’ at the end of the night.

    littel too detailed for me, and contrary to toybulldogs comment , i am not one that is worried about the biblical references, just about the lack of need to look deeper than the mystical mythological magical world of these tales xxx

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