"People's Vote"

mooosey88 wrote:

Remain isn’t and should NEVER be an option, that ship has sailed. What, divide the leave vote and remain by default ? Of course that is exactly what some want to happen You’d have to be very niaeve to believe otherwise !!

Actually, that ship may not have sailed yet

If a referendum is held, I’d be surprised if remain isn’t on the paper. There would be outrage among the bulk of Labour, the Greens, the SNP, the Lib Dems, and a section of the Tories if it were otherwise.

But who knows? It’s the Commons which would decide the questions, not me or JC.

Sorry

There could well be no referendum, but one thing that won’t happen if a referendum does take place is a 3-way choice in which less than 50% voting for one choice would win, so there’s no need for anyone to worry.

If more than 50% vote to leave without a deal, then we leave without a deal, catastrophic as it may well be..

If more than 50% vote to leave with May’s deal, we leave with may’s deal.

If 50% vote to remain, we remain.

Why is that a problem?? Sounds democratic to me.

Nigel Farage said  just before the 2016 referendum, that if the brexiteers lost by a narrow margin, they would be back soon. He described it as ‘unfinished business’.

What’s good for the goose….

Just saying

Outside of densely populated urban cities in England and Wales and to a lesser extent in Scotland and NI, the vote to leave was unanimous, no ifs or buts or maybes. The 52-48% statistic has been hijacked by the political ruling elite in an attempt to thwawt Brexit but it is a red herring, the vote wasn’t even close and and the vote was overwhelmingly in favour of Brexit from both sides of the political divide when you take constituencies into account. The polls also demonstrate that NOTHING much has changed public opinion wise since the referendum, if it had drastically changed in favour of Remain, a new referendum would already have been legislated for a year ago.

Preaching like a demented banshee what is read in the echo chamber of the Remain liberal press does not demonstrate zilch and does NOT go anywhere near to explaining the complexity of what political persuasion of people voted Brexit and why and of course the MUCH bigger picture. The peasants revolted peacefully and the liberal class and the ruling elite are now left scratching their privileged arses wondering what to do about it without making a total mockery of our so called democracy.

Well, apart from really odd comments about the Remain ruling class (*genuinely flummoxed here) and ‘Frexit'(well, we could certainly discuss that but it’s not relevant to this issue at the moment), these selected statistics refer to the 2016 referendum.

That referendum instructed Parliament to leave the EU.

The government has arranged a deal in accordance with that instruction.

Parliament – hard Brexiteers, Remainers, even soft brexiteers – don’t like that deal.

So Parliament must carry out the 2016 referendum in the most practicable way possible, whether by Norway-plus, Canada-minus, managed no deal, chaotic no deal.

One thing parliament cannot really do is revoke Article 50 and rejoin the EU.

That would be a betrayal of democracy as expressed in the 2016 referendum (whatever may be said about the campaign!). The result was very clear – narrow but decisive.

There is only one way in which Parliament can legitimately run a 2019 referendum. That would be because Parliament is totally incapable of agreeing on a withdrawal process.

The 2016 referendum only instructed Parliament to leave. How to leave was not part of the instruction,  and has turned out to be much, much more complicated than expected. people are much more aware of what it all involves, and there is a distinct possibility that they may have changed their minds since 2016 – or they may not have done.

Whether they’ve changed their mind or not is irrelevant to whether there should be a 2019 referendum, whatever Remainers or Brexiteers shout.

There could still be no 2019 referendum, because there remains the possibility that some sort of withdrawal arrangement can be agreed, though there is very little time left.

However, if Parliament fails to reach an agreement – and only under those circumstances – then there is no alternative but to ask the people for further instructions.

Now can someone tell me, amid all the whining and shouts of betrayal and fears, what the democratic problem is with that?

Drac, you make sense without waffle and constant repetition of what we already know…… Thank God ….

draculina wrote:

mooosey88 wrote:

Remain isn’t and should NEVER be an option, that ship has sailed. What, divide the leave vote and remain by default ? Of course that is exactly what some want to happen You’d have to be very niaeve to believe otherwise !!

The proposals for the “people’s vote” that I have seen use Single Transferable Voting (STV), which would mean that the leave vote would not be split in this way.

There are several proposals on how to deal with the vote.

There is the STV, but also a proposal by Vernon Bogdanor, the Constitutional Professor from Oxford et al, for a two-stage referendum.

I think it’s foolish to speculate until we know what the alternatives are, and a waste of time to go into detail until we’re sure there is a referendum.

draculina wrote:

   Athough, I think that holding another referendum on this subject is a terrible idea regardless of what voting method is used, and what options are on it.

Well, only being allowed to vote once is tyranny.

If you had lost, you’d be demanding another referendum, as Farage made clear.

As you won, you’re both now wanting to stop any further expression of popular opinion.

I am very unhappy that a referendum is being considered at this moment of time, but if Brexit has turned into a total mess – as it has – then there may not be an alternative.