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Hi girls….. I mean posters on this thread……I told Sceppy poohs I will read this when I get a week off work and am bored …anyway after reading page 1 and skirting page 2 and losing the will to live on page 3 this is how I see it
A passionate subject with passionate views wether you agree or not, however what happened to respect? Respects another’s opinion without abusing them! On this thread there are words used I don’t understand….policies, figures, projections I didn’t know existed…..couple of the posters are either googling or have considerable knowledge on certain facts yet you’re acting like 5 year olds!
You want to be all grown up and want out…..but can’t have a simple debate without resorting to insults………class
The only thing that jumped out at me was the word bamboozled…another one of my favourites
And btw I’m voting out….I am neither a racist or far right wing……
Someone mentioned this discussion thread in chat to me, ‘Brexit the Movie’ on YouTube is a must watch for anyone considering voting on the 23rd.
Not sure if you’re allowed to put links in here, but here goes – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYqzcqDtL3k
Good luck with your decision
I forgot to mention, its been banned from being aired on terrestrial television.
wonder why, mids??
Ms K, I did warn you about readng this thread. There are some substantive points made, believe it or not, and important questions unanswered.
You vote as you wish, but I have no idea whether you’re right-wing or not. You didn’t say why you’re voting to stay in. Easy to criticise others when hiding your own arguments, right? lol I think I know why you want out, but I don’t like to pre-empt. Go on, join an argument and make it grown-up.
I know some Brexiteers who are left-wing (and poor deluded souls) but the only person accused of racism so far is me (!!)
Immigration is the strong point of the brexiteers, and I was hoping that something could come out of actually tackling it head-on.
They also have a weak point, and it is fatal, but we have a couple of weeks to go yet.
So – my questions about immigration. Why not fight the illegal conditions in which gangmasters in East Anglia exploit Lithuanians and Poles? Some Lithuanians are fighting, but as they’re foreign, hardly anybody listens. There are EU and UK laws which need to be applied.
And why not train Brits up to do the jobs taken by Poles etc? Surely better than plungnng th economy into a short term crisis and potentially making us all permanaently poorer??
BB,
you say that these are facts from credible sources.Not true. They are highly partisan sources.
The immigration figures come from Migration Watch UK
Which figures?
That big green map showing the UK to be the 4th most densely populated country in the EU, is based on combining the European Commision’s 2014 “Eurostats” data, with national data.
The only figures used coming from Migration Watch is the future forecast of England being the most densely populated country in the EU. And if you read the link provided you’ll find that those figures aren’t just plucked out of thin air, but that they likewise originate from and are based upon the European Comission’s Eurostats data (particularly EUROPOP 2013 based population projections ), the Office of National Statistics 2012 Principal Projection , and with added geographical data from the World Bank.
…which dresses itself up as an independent and impartial group but is in fact quite the opposite – an anti-immigrant group described by the Migration Matters Trust (an organisation dedicated to public debate on immigration) as “not an independent think tank, or academic body, but a lobbying and campaigning organisation”. It has been criticised as a right-wing, anti-immigrant group engaged in using statistics to make dodgy projections to scare people about an issue that deeply worries many.
It’s been criticised as that by certain groups and commentators – by people like yourself for instance who (and of which is abundantly clear from your posts on here), absolutely despise this country, have no allegiance to or care for the people in it, and who is willingly in favour of mass uncontrolled immigration – all the while underhandedly trying to characterise any negative attention given to such as being motivated by xenophobia, bigotry, racism or right-wing extremism.
For example, that specific critique you’ve quoted there against Migration Watch, is from an organisation that aims to challenge the perceptions of mass uncontrolled immigration being a bad thing:
“The big political parties need to be brave enough to be straight about this, with the British people. Britain needs immigration, immigration is broadly good for the country, that’s why its rising. It would be rising under a government of any stripe. ” – Migration Matters Trust
And it’s also chaired by Barbara Roche, a former Labour immigration minister who is alleged to have been a part in the deliberate encouragement of mass immigration into the UK during Blair’s time as Prime Minister.
So to claim that Migration Watch isn’t impartial or therefore credible, by quoting assertions made against them by organisations that want to push the agenda of uncontrolled mass immigration being a good thing, is nothing short of hilarity.
If you really do insist on bringing Migration Watch into disrepute though, then you’d need to take issue with the sources and methodology that they’ve used and explain why their forecast of England becoming the most densely populated country in the EU, is not a credible one. You might also do well to contact fullfact.org and ask them why they’re happy to use them as a reference in their articles.
Britain is (so far) a very successful economy (- in the EU), so naturally attracts labour. This labour fills jobs that Brits don’t or won’t fill. If you want to rectify this, why not train Brits up to do the jobs instead?? And agitate for union rights for migrant workers to fight low-paying bosses such as the gangmasters of East Anglia who do employ dirt-cheap labour without adequate safety and protection rights to undercut the local labour force on harvesting and picking the crops in the Fens. And to consistently enforce the social rights embodied in EU and British law.
Britain does have a very successful and strong economy–the 2nd biggest economy in the EU and the 5th biggest in the world!–and which is why so many people want to come here. This place is a prize asset.
Yes Brits should be trained up to do the jobs and encouraged into all areas of work; and your point about putting pressure on bosses who undercut local labour with cheap migrants isn’t something I particularly object to (nor is allowing in some immigration in a controlled way for that matter), but neither of your points address the fundamental detrimental effects of the sheer volume of people coming into the country on a year-on-year basis, and all of the resulting ills that come with that – not just in terms of the higher demand and competition for jobs (gifting employers the upper hand over employees), but in all areas of society as a whole.
It’s foreign labour coming in which genuinely worries people, and for you to refuse to discuss this problem as ‘beneath contempt’ is typical of a dishonest slurring around a problem.
Your specific use of “johnny foreigner” in attempt to frame the argument as coming from a place of xenophobia, is what I objected to as being beneath contempt. And it is you who has been trying to downplay mass immigration here and misconstrue the arguments against it. That you now have the audacity to try and spin this as me refusing to discuss immigration, all the while pretending to take the helm of being the champion of peoples concerns about it, just goes to highlight what a thoroughly dishonest and deceitful person you are. Perhaps even a tad psychotic?
All I’m getting from you is flapping and flailing around because you don’t like the fact that the arguments highlight the cons of mass uncontrolled immigration that goes hand-in-hand with EU membership.
When black labour moved from the US Deep South to the North 100 years ago, US trade unions attacked black labour as ‘scab labour’. The result was not an attack on the employers, but on the black themselves in a series of bloody pogroms in which dozens of blacks were killed and maimed in Chicago, St louis and (later, in 1943) in Detroit. It wasn’t the blacks who were the problem, but their lack of unionisation.
Okay, but what does that have to with anything?
*Good, even the right-wing Tories like Johnson and Gove (who wants to replace the EU with Albania and Ukraine(!) as our free trade zone, have to admit that the 2 million migrants stay! Train brit workers up to do the jobs required, enforce minmum wage and EU/British social rights, and the problems will be seen not to be migration.
It’s not that they have to admit it, it’s that expelling people has never been an issue in the first place. Brexit isn’t about chucking out “all the foreigners” as you’re so keen to imply it is. It’s about controlling immigration to a manageable level and ensuring it positively benefits us.
And the only way immigration is never going to be a problem is when Britain suddenly transforms into a magical expanding Island with unlimited resources (obviously not going to happen), so mass immigration currently is, and will increasingly be, a problem – especially so if we don’t take the chance to control it by leaving the EU.
That does NOT make everything hunky-dory with the EU. I voted not to join when the first referendum was held, and I’m voting to stay in on 23 June for the same reasons – the economic dislocations caused bu such a radical change. This time around, they’re going to be much deeper and more negative for our standards of living.
Not necessarily.
amidst all the dodgy projections, there is one fact you’ve had to admit.
2 million migrants are here to stay for as long as the UK is economically successful.Not dodgy projections, and not had to “admit” it.
So we have the choice – make the economy poorer by leaving the EU, whihc will lead t6o many migrants getting out quick.
It’s not necessarily going to be poorer though. There’s differing economic forecasts with some estimating that we’ll even be better off outside of the EU.
And it’s to be noted that practically all of the doom-and-gloom forecasts that have been headlining in the news recently by “top economic bodies”, aren’t saying that we might become “permanently poorer” as such, but just that we might not be as richer at a later date in the future. For example, estimating that the economy will expand by 29% by 2030 if we were to stay in, compared to only expanding by 26% by 2030 if we left – and then the remain campaign/media dressing this up to mean that the economy will shrink by 3% if we leave and we’ll all be permanently poorer. It’s a subtle play on language to make it seem gloomier than it is. Our economy is still predicted to grow and we’re still going to be richer in the long-term than we are now, and this regardless of how the vote goes.
Or stay in the EU to change it – why not train up Brits for the jobs we need instead???
Cameron’s “negotiations” proved how unchangeable it is.
And simply put: training up Brits doesn’t nullify the detrimental effects of mass uncontrolled immigration.BB…I will definitely reply to this, because immigration is the most difficult of topics for Remain, and your arguments have some substance.
Immigration touches on many fears of ordinary people which can’t be brushed under the carpet, but it’s because it’s hard to argue with fear, and because it’s easier but not really effectual to argue with people who whip up fear (and there are many of those in Leave), that I’m finding it a problem in giving a carefully-considered response.
I am going to give it a few days for one reason. I want to see if others are going to put up their views. I’ve asked Ms K and I’ve asked Sophia to explain their own positions, because it’s easier to mock than it is to put your neck on the line by giving your own views, and I want to wait for their response.
I’m not kicking this into the long grass and hoping it will go away. It’s too important (as is the economy, which arouses my fears and should arouse the fears of everyone here). So I’ll take up your points on Tuesday/Wednesday.
Just saying.
Okay.
No rush.
No, BB.
I’m not answering you after your comments on the Jo Cox thread.
You seem a bit brighter than SHR, but just as disgusting.
I’m sure you’ll crow but I feel slightly bilious at the thought of discussing anything with you at the moment, to be honest.
For anyone else, good points were made in the debate last night on BBC, but if anyone has any different points to raise, I’ll happily attempt to answer them. Migrant Watch misuse figures with false assumptions about Turkish entry, and extrapolate projections into the future which are universally agreed to be meaningless.
Net migration stands at 300,000 thats the fact
Yes, pete.
But net immigration from non-EU countries is cumulatively far bigger than than that from the EU.
Hardworking young people from the EU are likely to fit into the UK well. We have a long history of absorbing immigrants successfully, and I welcome the thriving multi-cultural society which has grown up in the UK for many decades now.
More people in this country have jobs than ever before – they are in general not taking jobs from people, but contributing to the UK economy, including paying for the services. See below on dealing with those who are taking jobs from locals.
We have 1.2 million people living abroad, contributing to economies elsewhere and paying for the services they enjoy.
Thre are many things which can be done to control immigration into this country short of leaving the EU – if it needs controlling. We could demand lengthier tanstion controls and safeguard arranfgements on internal migration, and Cameron should use the referendum – if the Remain side win – to win that. He may well be pushing an open door.
We need to train up unemployed UK people to do the key jobs – many employers are complaining of a major skills shortage.
We need to make sure that public investment in housing and services is increased, and that the open door policy to Russian oligarchs which has made london unaffordable to londoners (Boris Johnson, of Leave, is the main man behind this!), is ended.
And we need to crack down on cheap-wage employers. This means stop advertising abroad for jobs before they’re advertised here first.And we need to unionise and move against the exploitative gangmasters of places such as East Anglia – where a lot of local people have been displaced by Lithuanians and others living in illegal, inhuman living conditions, instead of turning a blind eye to Lithuanians who are trying to fight those conditions.
Practical measures, not scare tactics, are needed.
No, BB.
I’m not answering you after your comments on the Jo Cox thread.
You seem a bit brighter than SHR, but just as disgusting.
I’m sure you’ll crow but I feel slightly bilious at the thought of discussing anything with you at the moment, to be honest.
For anyone else, good points were made in the debate last night on BBC, but if anyone has any different points to raise, I’ll happily attempt to answer them. Migrant Watch misuse figures with false assumptions about Turkish entry, and extrapolate projections into the future which are universally agreed to be meaningless.
Why has the aggressive pub bore involved me in this post.
The site troll, who can’t answer because he plagiarizes from other sites and passes it off as his owns views.
Read through the pub bores entire comments during this debate, aggressive and angry whilst attempting (poorly) to dominate the whole conversation.
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