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Well, drac, you’re misinterpreteting laicité in France, overdoing its problems withr egard to religion.
It means the official separation of state and church, and a ban on any church affecting public policy.
That is something I entirely support.
It was liberal on public symbols until 2005 when a ban on certain religious symbols was passed, aimed at Muslims. That ban wasn’t general, but aimed at public schools, specifically at the wearing of the hijab. It was only in two arrondissements in Marseille that a ban on using religious symbols in marriages was imposed, and that ban was condemned by the mayor of Marseille. There was a ban on the wearing of face-covering gear in 2010.
This is far from a general ban on relifgious symbols in public places,. Such a ban would be an affront to the freedom of religious worship whihc is such a crucial part of Western freedoms.
Freedom of speech is crucial to western society too. Nobody, including myself, would support freedom to incite violence. John Stuart Mill specifically stated that incitement to violence is not an exercise of free speech in On Liberty. That’s why hate crimes are singled out as a crime, and rightly so. But freedom of speech means above all freedom of someone to disagree with you without violence – and that includes religion.
So you’re claiming too much in talking about Western values. Western values are rooted in the Enlightenment, and I fully support them.
Your differentiation of muslims and islam is very personal. The divisions you point to are real, though. I would oppose the violent jihadis, but remember that jihad is interpreted by most muslims in terms of peaceful conversion – holy war in a way whihc Christias would understand and sympathise.
Two of your categories are welcome to continue – liberals and “fundamentalists”. In western societies, sharia law is not allowed where it conflicts with national law, and that is right, so ‘Islamists’ as you wrongly define them (it’s a misnomer, all moslems call themselves islamists) will have to curb their practices. ‘Jihadis’ *(as you call them – all moslems believe in jihad, though) – radical islamists as most people call them – are opposed root and branch, and rightly so…
I do not like Islam, no matter what category they’re in, but not liking Islam doesn’t mean banning them. Mutual toleration is needed for people – Christians and Muslims – who wish to convert the world to their faith peacefully (ie most muslims).
BB sounds like he wants a religious war?? He uses the same cries of betrayal and accusations that anyone who opposes himns in alignemtn with islam which fit with a war. if he doesn’t want that, then he should explain himself more carefully.This country is lost to civilisation if it listens to nonsense about a religious war against muslims.
Well, drac, you’re misinterpreteting laicité in France, overdoing its problems withr egard to religion.
It was liberal on public symbols until 2005 when a ban on certain religious symbols was passed, aimed at Muslims. That ban wasn’t general, but aimed at public schools, specifically at the wearing of the hijab. It was only in two arrondissements in Marseille that a ban on using religious symbols in marriages was imposed, and that ban was condemned by the mayor of Marseille. There was a ban on the wearing of face-covering gear in 2010.
This is far from a general ban on relifgious symbols in public places,. Such a ban would be an affront to the freedom of religious worship whihc is such a crucial part of Western freedoms.
No, all religious symbols are banned in public. What you are talking about is the classification of the hijab / niqab / burka as a religious symbol, which it is (even though it originally came from greek traditions).
John Stuart Mill specifically stated that incitement to violence is not an exercise of free speech in On Liberty.
Then he is wrong, although I agree that it should be punished.
That’s why hate crimes are singled out as a crime, and rightly so.
I disagree strongly, I see no case for hate crimes to exist.
Your differentiation of muslims and islam is very personal.
I just defined what I meant by those terms so you would understand what I mean if I use them.
but remember that jihad is interpreted by most muslims in terms of peaceful conversion
The Quran says otherwise in no uncertain terms.
Mutual toleration is needed
Why should I tolerate someone that believes I should be executed for loving someone?
This country is lost to civilisation if it listens to nonsense about a religious war against muslims.
The Islamists want and are already engaging in a religious war, it’s already happening. Do you suggest that we just surrender to them?
Lots of things said on this thread are the type of comments that incite scaremongering. Quite the experts on the Quran. Personally ive never read it or got a friend to interpret it word for word for me and ive never read an online translation by some random. Because that would not be a true interpretation. Infact I have never read my religious bible, I couldn’t if I tried, because I cant read Punjabi. To be honest I hardly know whats written in it, so I don’t pretend to be an expert.
Some of the comments I have heard in reference to the Quran. The ones relating to a muslim should not befriend a non muslim and if they do or have the motive is to eventually be their downfall in a nutshell. Well I have known and are friends with a couple of muslims and ive not been murdered yet. Maybe watch this space? And also the comment regarding them not celebrating others happiness and religious festivities. Again, the muslims I know have been to huge family celebrations of mine, celebrating dancing and eating and drinking our food, and have wished us happy Diwali. A muslim family moved into my mums road a few years ago, the little girl made my mum a happy Diwali card. Ive never given my muma Diwali card lol.
As you were.
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drac,
we’re already at war with radical islam. It’s a difficult war, too. At home it involves keeping guard against terror and it involves police work rather than military activity.
A religious war against the majority of Muslims would involve our society being torn apart and a lot of peaceful muslims lining up to fight with the radicals to defend their homes and their faith. BB may want that – if he doesn’t he should make it clear just what his strategy is.
Why should you tolerate people who want to kill you for loving somebody? Simple, you don’t. Any muslim or any person who executes/kills someoen is already not tolerated. If you look at all the Judaic religions – Christian, Jewish, Muslim – they hate same-sex marriage and saem-sex relationships. The Bible is full of blood-curdling stuff about gays, and religious people can act in different way to punish gays, and in Uganda gays are threatened with death by Christians on a daily basis..
But that’s not how all Christians, religious jews and Muslims think and act. The majority of people in liberal Christian societies now support same-sex marriage – even in Ireland, where the long rule of the Catholic Church on questions like same-sex marriage has been defied, much to the joy of liberal Catholics.
The demand to kill anyone is not tolerated. Putting up wiht people with whom you profoundly disagree – including fundamentalist christian a-holes – is what toleration is about.
Hate crimes are important, and I know we disagree on that. Surprises me after what you say about not tolerating people who want to kill you for loving someone (and quite a few religious people do), but that has to be for another time.
Lots of things said on this thread are the type of comments that incite scaremongering. Quite the experts on the Quran. Personally ive never read it or got a friend to interpret it word for word for me and ive never read an online translation by some random. Because that would not be a true interpretation.
Complete nonsense, the English language is perfectly able to convey any concept. Just ask any ex-muslim atheist, they will confirm the translations are accurate.
Infact I have never read my religious bible, I couldn’t if I tried, because I cant read Punjabi. To be honest I hardly know whats written in it.
Then it isn’t your holy book.
Some of the comments I have heard in reference to the Quran. The ones relating to a muslim should not befriend a non muslim and if they do or have the motive is to eventually be their downfall in a nutshell. Well I have known and are friends with a couple of muslims and ive not been murdered yet. Maybe watch this space? And also the comment regarding them not celebrating others happiness and religious festivities. Again, the muslims I know have been to huge family celebrations of mine, celebrating dancing and eating and drinking our food, and have wished us happy Diwali. A muslim family moved into my mums road a few years ago, the little girl made my mum a happy Diwali card. Ive never given my muma Diwali card lol.
I have friends who are Muslim myself, all of them hold some beliefs that are not compatible with western values. None of them for instance, aprove of my relationship with my girlfriend. But this is anecdotal evidence at best, I have provided actual evidence for my case. I can tell from the way that you speak about muslims that you have never met an Islamist, you would have a very different view of Islam if you had.
drac, we’re already at war with radical islam. It’s a difficult war, too. At home it involves keeping guard against terror and it involves police work rather than military activity. A religious war against the majority of Muslims would involve our society being torn apart and a lot of peaceful muslims lining up to fight with the radicals to defend their homes and their faith.
If they support the Islamists and Ijhadist then they have no place in our society either.
Why should you tolerate people who want to kill you for loving somebody? Simple, you don’t. Any muslim or any person who executes/kills someoen is already not tolerated.
It’s what Sharia law requires, and a majority of muslims support Sharia.
If you look at all the Judaic religions – Christian, Jewish, Muslim – they hate same-sex marriage and saem-sex relationships. The Bible is full of blood-curdling stuff about gays, and religious people can act in different way to punish gays, and in Uganda gays are threatened with death by Christians on a daily basis
The bible actually has contradicting messages on gay people. 2 Samuel seems to describe an openly gay relationship between David and Jonathan, which is only one example I could give. But this isn’t really relevent, Christian fundementalists are very rare in this country. My girlfriend’s family refused to speak to her for 6 years when they found out she was lesbian, they only speak to her now because they think she has been ‘cured’. I have just as much of a problem with them too.
Hate crimes are important, and I know we disagree on that. Surprises me after what you say about not tolerating people who want to kill you for loving someone (and quite a few religious people do), but that has to be for another time.
I just don’t see the purpose of making things that are already illegal, more illegal when targeted towards the minority group of the month. All laws should provide equal protection to everyone, and equal punishment for breaking the law.
Drac, thanks for the response, but quite frankly sometimes you can be quite condescending and down right insulting.
the English language cannot perfectly convey any concept. How would you know that? I as a foreigner know it cannot in all cases. Even word foe word translations are not possible. Ex Muslim atheist is the clue to your translators……they are rebels to their religion and suppressed life. Of course they will give you the negative.
So I cannot read Punjabi therefore cannot read my holy book, means it isn’t my holy book? Pathetic analysis. I’m sure there are many British born Muslims who cannot read Urdu, does that mean the Koran doesn’t exist?
most people hold views that aren’t compatible to western beliefs. I do. I’m sure even westerners don’t agree to all of western culturisms and beliefs.
and finally….I speak of Muslims as humans. I know they aren’t all extremists. Of course ive not met an Islamist,I don’t rock and roll in those circles.
i know the difference between a Muslim and an extremist Muslim……you don’t see, to that’s the problem here……and people like you who like to instil fear in Jo public about Muslims…..
you think you are knowledgeable on the Koran….you mingle with islamists….You are inciting fear……you are singling out a culture ……Drac….I think you are the problem here
Drac, thanks for the response, but quite frankly sometimes you can be quite condescending and down right insulting. the English language cannot perfectly convey any concept. How would you know that? I as a foreigner know it cannot in all cases. Even word foe word translations are not possible.
Why do you assume I was born in an English speaking country? I wasn’t, it’s my second language. A word for word translation isn’t required to convey the same concept, there are an almost infite combination of words that can describe the same thing.
So I cannot read Punjabi therefore cannot read my holy book, means it isn’t my holy book? Pathetic analysis.
How can you claim something is holy that by your own admission, you know nothing about? It makes no sense to me.
Ex Muslim atheist is the clue to your translators……they are rebels to their religion and suppressed life. Of course they will give you the negative.
I don’t think people lose the ability to read and understand the meaning of text when they become atheists.
most people hold views that aren’t compatible to western beliefs. I do. I’m sure even westerners don’t agree to all of western culturisms and beliefs.
This is true, but certain groups of people hold more conflicting beliefs than others.
i know the difference between a Muslim and an extremist Muslim
You might want to tell the police and immigration services your secret method, they would be very interested in preventing terrorism using it.
you don’t see, to that’s the problem here……and people like you who like to instil fear in Jo public about Muslims…..
I think it’s you that isn’t seeing properly, if I am ‘spreading fear’ about anything then it is Islam, not muslims.
you think you are knowledgeable on the Koran….
I have read the Quran, and discussed parts of it both with ex-muslims, and with muslims of both the Sunni and Shia sects. Can you explain what is wrong with my method of understanding the Quran?
you mingle with islamists….
Evidence?
You are inciting fear……you are singling out a culture ……Drac….I think you are the problem here
A religion is not a culture, you aren’t making any sense.
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BB, are you suggesting there are no intolerant commandments or recommendations in the holy books of other religions?
…
Some discriminate a little bit maybe in terms of a few petty minor things, yeah… but absolutely nowhere near the level of the pure vitriol that’s contained within Islam.
I’m saying there’s no moral equivalence between Islam and the other religions – not if they’re understood properly. Islam stands in an entire league of it’s own.
Your assessment of Islam is largely accurate BB, it’s as much a political ideology as a religion which is where it differers from christianity and most people don’t understand this. It is worth mentioning of course that not all muslims are Islamists, even if a narrow majority appear to be.
Yep. Though personally for me I don’t make any distinction between a Muslim and an Islamist. A true Muslim who adheres properly to mainstream Islam is what we in the West would label an Islamist, but I completely agree with your point that not all Muslims are true Muslims. There’s different degrees of religious knowledge and fervour that have to be factored in.
People like skeptical_guy hate the Western world and are in alignment with Islamic values.
Not quite sure I agree with you on this one, there are people like that but I don’t think Skep is an Islamist
He’s either a Muslim (or “Islamist” if you like) himself, or a hard left progressive – which in my view is just as bad because they’re on the same team; both want the downfall of Western society and are pushing to make it happen, just perhaps for slightly different reasons. They are natural allies.
BB – hahaha. You’re like SHR – no disagreeing with you, is there?
The brothers have your address, BB. Be afraid, be very afraid- sala’am – bows to Mecca and starts to froth at the mouth as I rant against Western values…
but wait, aren’t freedom of speech and religion Western values????
Disagree all you want but it’s obvious that I detest what you stand for and that I think you’re a weasel.
Lots of things said on this thread are the type of comments that incite scaremongering. Quite the experts on the Quran. Personally ive never read it or got a friend to interpret it word for word for me and ive never read an online translation by some random. Because that would not be a true interpretation. Infact I have never read my religious bible, I couldn’t if I tried, because I cant read Punjabi. To be honest I hardly know whats written in it, so I don’t pretend to be an expert. Some of the comments I have heard in reference to the Quran. The ones relating to a muslim should not befriend a non muslim and if they do or have the motive is to eventually be their downfall in a nutshell. Well I have known and are friends with a couple of muslims and ive not been murdered yet. Maybe watch this space? And also the comment regarding them not celebrating others happiness and religious festivities. Again, the muslims I know have been to huge family celebrations of mine, celebrating dancing and eating and drinking our food, and have wished us happy Diwali. A muslim family moved into my mums road a few years ago, the little girl made my mum a happy Diwali card. Ive never given my muma Diwali card lol. As you were.
If you don’t know anything about it, then why do you see yourself fit to dismiss what’s being said here regarding it as not being true, or as just scaremongering? Do you not see how both ignorant and arrogant it is to do that?
Those links about Muslims not mixing with non-Muslims, and not being able to share in others festivities, are from a site run by Islamic scholars with a Muslim audience in mind to help them better understand their own religion. You might not like what it says, but that’s standard Islamic teachings, and having known one or two Muslims that might not have followed them properly does not then invalidate those teachings or reflect on the religious conviction of the broader Muslim community.
And to quickly get back to and answer the OP…
We in this country, seem to pander to the Muslim community for some reason. Why? I would like someone to explain to me in simple English, why this is?
Mainly because people like this live here in unfortunately large numbers:
and people like you who like to instil fear in Jo public about Muslims….. you think you are knowledgeable on the Koran….you mingle with islamists….You are inciting fear……you are singling out a culture ……Drac….I think you are the problem here
so, BB, you want an all-out religious war? Or what??
As I am a muslim or a hard-left progressivist, the same thing in your view, and too many people like Ms K live here, how are you going to deal with us? You going to kill us, imprison us?
My understanding is that your posts on Jo Cox were banned from the site – I believe it was from fear of legal action being taken, though Martin may correct me on that.
You want to take Martin out too as a Muslim and EU-lover???
You make it clear that your intolerance is absolute, and that your definition of a Western civilisation is a very perverted one, emptied of anything that makes our society worth defending against radical Islam.
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