Muslims must integrate more

SHR. wrote:

So you have done some limited research and had it all ready to post. s I knew you would. It is irrelevant anyway.

I was doing the research at the same time as you posted.

SHR. wrote:

When you do some real research, you can ask why young men from the BAME community, including Muslims, are far more likely to be imprisoned for the same crimes as their white peers are NOT imprisoned for.

Prison sentancing needs reform, it allows too much bias into it.

Also women are about half as likely to be sentanced as men, and get about half the time when they do. You should also be concerned about that.

SHR. wrote:

Quoting a convicted criminal the founder of the far right EDL and attempting to pass his views of as factual, sums this thread up.

I never tried to pass it as factual, I said twice in my post that I didn’t know if it was true or not.

draculina wrote:

I’m going to change the subject away from what is and isn’t British values because its not very productive. I’ve been watching some interviews with Tommy Robbinson recently. I’m going to assume that most people here either don’t know who is he is, or don’t like him. Regardless of that, he has said a few things that I have never heard of before. I still need to do some research to see if there is any truth to his claims but I will summerise them for you. He says that the disproportionately high population of muslims in prison is a large contributor to radicalisation, where the only contact with the outside a lot of them have is with salafist imams. He also claims that muslims are a majority in most prisons (which I haven’t checked yet), which allows them to control the black market of cigarettes and drugs inside of the prison. Because of this they can force people to either convert to Islam or pay jizya in order to have access to the drugs. If any of this is true then it seems that the prison system needs to be changed significantly. What do you think about this?

Tommy Robinson is a founder member of the English Defence League, a violent organisation which is racist almost without any dog whistle. To think I’m a racist while taking Tommy Robinson (and Breitbart) seriously shows you are on a very steep learning curve, drac.

What he says about radicalisation in prisons is almost certainly true, and has been noted by other people, and is a real problem in prisons. What he says about getting control of the ciggy trade and using it to force people to convert sounds very suspicious indeed to me, though I’m sure that radical jihadis are not above using tactics like that.

draculina wrote:

wannabefatcat wrote:

She’s on bully power trip. Such a shame, too, because she’s probably a grown up. Draculina is infinitely better than you so you should show the respect that she deserves.

Thanks, but I can definitely be wrong about things too.

This is why I have always taken drac seriously, no matter how deeply I disagree with her views. She takes questions up with an attempt at careful argument (an attempt which doesn’t always succeed, I should say, but she can say the same about any of us).

I can be tough in my reaction to her, as she can be, but I’ve never degenerated into calling her pejorative names like Nazi etc etc (not to my knowledge, and if I have I will apologise now). She’s a different kettle of fish to BB.

That’s why I am so concerned about being called a racist by her. She defines racism in her own way, and according to her definition people like Ms K are racists, while Tommy Robinson are taken seriously (admittedly she hadn’t heard of Mr Robinson). But I can’t take anyone seriously who starts throwing comments like racist around; it’s like her calling Hitler a centre-Left politician. It doesn’t make her a smear-artist, like some on here, because she defines these things in her own (arbitrary) way. But it does start to make me wonder how serious she is when she calls me a racist.

I don’t think the discussion on British values is exhausted. It’s actually central to the thread – what are Muslims being asked to integrate into? I’ll say more on this.

The Prison Service could halt the practice of radicalization of young Muslims anytime they so choose. Using dispersal within the system, moving trouble makers to other prisons at short notice and isolation (prisons within prisons) and other methods similar to what have suggested previously on this thread. Good intelligence etc, to identify those involved.The rules are in place already, no new legislation is required.

That they haven’t, suggests to me it either isn’t as serious as reported, it is as serious but the Secret Service are monitoring it for further intelligence, or alternatively it is a funding issue due to tory cutbacks. Either way the state could step in anytime it so chose, with the right resources and halt the practice overnight.

As for “snout”, devout Muslims don’t smoke. So that is just silly bordering on parody. Alternatively why wouldn’t hard core radicals target vulnerable young men to indoctrinate.  Prison has always been described as the “university of crime”.

“Snout” has always been used as a currency within the prison system by organized gangs, although “legal highs” and other drugs like marijuana/heroin/speed and phone cards/mobile phones and even “noodles” are beginning to overtake tobacco as the currency of choice for those criminal gangs. Prisons have also always been “run” by whatever section of society is currently the largest, or most powerful group/gang.

It’s not rocket science that if vulnerable young men (convicted of fairly minor offenses, compared to terrorism) are placed in prison alongside dangerous terrorists, radicalization will take place. The state bears responsibility for that, not vulnerable young men.

Racism is the belief that your race is superior to others, and that a race whihc si coming into a country should be ejected and attacked, physically and verbally.

Simple., something that everyone can agree on. I’m not  racist under that definition – quite the opposite. Clear? I don’t care what oddbods of Left or Right use the label of racism. There is such a thing as racism, and my definition seems the most work-like one. You can redefine terms so that theyy cease to make sense – eg Hitler as a centre-left politician(!)

Anti-Islam isn’t necessarily racist. I’m anti-islam, in that I don’t find Islam at all attractive. But as long as they don’t try to convert by breaking the law (eg applying sharia law in full) or by violence (eg radical jihadis) I will fight for their right to practise their own religion in this country.

Anti_Islam can be dog whistle racism, as the vast majority of Muslims in this country seem to be of Asian origin (I’m relying on drac here, as I don’t have figures). Any attempt to declare physical war on them by deportation and the consequent use of armed force to overcome resistance smacks of dog whistle racism, particularly when you say you are ready to parachute all of them, including vulnerable, into the desert, and not give a damn about what happens to them. BB has expressed this view on this thread; drac has opposed it. They aren’t teh same. If it proves I’m wrong, I’ll change my mind and my approach.