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Draculina, it seems a major point in this thread that you want other cultures (Islam) to come to our culture in Britain and embrace it (integrate), that is a very valid point you raise. However, it seems you are not willing to do this, to go to other cultures and embrace it and integrate to it. Maybe that too is valid.
It is not valid to impose one culture onto another. Our British culture as wonderful as it may be, to us, is incompatible with the rest of the world. We are just Little Britain, we dont rule the world, anymore. Planet Earth is a very diverse place and long may it remain so.
However, it seems you are not willing to do this, to go to other cultures and embrace it and integrate to it. Maybe that too is valid.
I wasn’t actually born in Britain, I didn’t speak a word of English when I moved here. I had to integrate into the culture myself. But you are correct that I wouldn’t choose to live in a culture that was in opposition to, so I don’t.
You think that British people are not allowed to change Saudi culture. Are British people allowed to change British culture? Is a French person living in Britain (me, argueably) allowed to change British culture?
Our British culture as wonderful as it may be, to us, is incompatible with the rest of the world. We are just Little Britain, we dont rule the world, anymore. Planet Earth is a very diverse place and long may it remain so.
Most developed countries have at least a legal system which is based on case law, which is British, so they aren’t that incompatible with us in the same way that for instance Saudi is with Sharia law. I don’t like the culture in Pakistan, but I have friends who live there. I can get along with them because they understand the way their country operates is wrong and we share common values.
You think that British people are not allowed to change Saudi culture.
No I do not think that. I dont think any culture should impose itself on another. I dont think change is the correct word, may I use contribute. If through friendly dialogue one culture adopts elements of another thats fine.
Are British people allowed to change British culture?
Yes of course, who better to do it ? The saudis?
Is a French person living in Britain (me, argueably) allowed to change British culture?
Yes of course, again, contribute to, rather than changed, Im sure many great French people have done too. The Normans from france drastically changed our culture 1000 years ago.
I am not advocating cultural isolations, or cultural unifications. Let us also not mix up the words countries and cultures. They are 2 different things. Culture is subject to evolution just like everything is, and evolution will shape how the worlds different cultures will thrive or not.
Most developed countries have at least a legal system which is based on case law, which is British, so they aren’t that incompatible with us in the same way that for instance Saudi is with Sharia law.
I agree, however law is just one small element of what culure is. Culture is “that complex whole which includes knowledge, belief, art, morals, law, custom and any other capabilities and habits acquired by man as a member of society” British culture has contributed to the world to some extent, yet includes heavy binge drinking, heavy drug abuse and football hooliganism amongst other elements, I think most other cultures would reject these elements, and many more, thus generally render British culture incompatible with most of the rest of world. Besides, the rest of the world has their own cultures what do they want ours for? Do we want theirs ?
I am getting close to resting my case, you might get a grand summary if you’re provocative enough
Le grand résumé
Haven’t got a clue about the rest of it but football hooliganism here is really tame compared to lots of places, but if you want to see places where it really is in their culture then check out some of the South American countries on youtube.
Right where was I
In Inca Peru, child sacrifice was acceptable
We are going back a few centuries, our culture at that time was burning witches at the stake and trading in slaves. Its a little daft and very ethnocentric to judge the cultures of centuries ago on our modern ideals, morals, norms and standards.
Noooo, not at all.
Cultural relativism applies to a different culture, irrespective of time.
If child sacrifice were common in Inca Peru in 1500, or in a newly-discovered New Guinea tribe today, the cultural relativist (such as you) would still respect it. When in the tribe, do as the tribe does.
Sorry, mah deah, it don’t wash, not in the water and not in the child’s blood.
If it is the norm to burn widows on the funeral pyre of the dead husband in some Indian village today, or if it were the norm to kill someone merely because of their sexual desires, or to tear the heart from a living child in a culture whenever, then a cultural relativist (such as you, mah deah) would say that burning the woman or killing the gay or tearing the child’s heart out must be respected. You assume that while the child may not be having as fun a time as playing with her doll, she will accept the cultural norm and submit (maybe, though she’ll have no choice!)
Not in my approach is any of this acceptable. I’m an ethical absolutist. Hurting and killing people for whatever reason is not acceptable.
Pontius Pilate was a cultural relativist, with a cynical attitude common to Roman officials of his time. “What is truth!” was his dismissive remark to some bum they’d brought in from the street for death, who greeted his remark with silence.. Or to quote the anti-relativism of another time – “you can’t look at much, man, can you?”
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Cultural relativism applies to a different culture, irrespective of time.
then a cultural relativist (such as you, mah deah)
the cultural relativist (such as you)
Hang on, the term I introduced earlier was ethnocentric,
Ethnocentrism is judging another culture solely by the values and standards of one’s own culture. Ethnocentrism has developed a generally negative connotation.
The term someone else introduced earlier, which you are now using Cultural relativism it seems is not being used correctly.
Cultural relativism is the principle that an individual’s beliefs and activities should be understood by others in terms of that individual’s own culture. “…civilization is not something absolute, but … is relative, and … our ideas and conceptions are true only so far as our civilization goes.”
Feel free to use what ever terminology you think best suits my ideals. I am a non ethnocentrist, and refuse to judge other cultures solely on my cultural values and standards, especially those cultures most distant in time and place, if you wish to do so, be my guest. I would also appreciate it if other cultures didnt judge my culture solely on their own morals and values either. According to Islamic culture, or certain interpretations of it, I am a Kafir and should be killed.
Ethnocentrism has developed a generally negative connotation.
Cultural relativism applies to a different culture, irrespective of time.
Cultural relativism
Herodotus (Histories 3.38) observes on the relativity of mores (νόμοι):
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<dd>”If anyone, no matter who, were given the opportunity of choosing from amongst all the nations in the world the set of beliefs which he thought best, he would inevitably—after careful considerations of their relative merits—choose that of his own country. Everyone without exception believes his own native customs, and the religion he was brought up in, to be the best; and that being so, it is unlikely that anyone but a madman would mock at such things. There is abundant evidence that this is the universal feeling about the ancient customs of one’s country.”</dd>
</dl>
You are a cultural relativist and an ethocentrist are you not? You are advocating our values are best and we should impose our culture on the savages of New Guinea.
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