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Of course religion is the issue , do people think the bomber blew himself up for the fun if it? Islam quotes direct fron the quran say “slay infifels where you find them”. Thats not scaremongering but black and white print. AS for the bomber yes he was born here but his parents weren’t, his dad is an immigrant jihadi fighter giving birth to a son who has followed in his dads footsteps.
I would be very interested in where this quotation appears in the Koran. I’d be grateful if you gave me chapter and verse.
I have a copy which was given to me by a Muslim at East Ham tube station entrance a few years ago. He was very polite and refused to accept money for it. He said that no Muslim could accept money, and he was obliged to give me a copy because I had asked for one. I gave him some money for his mosque in lieu of payment for the book, and he was very happy to accept that. I’ve known several Muslims, and have always been impressed by their politeness, and by the respect shown to me as an infidel. They seem to have not the slightest wish to harm me, never mind kill me.
But if you can give me chapter and verse where the Koran says kill all infidels, that would be very much appreciated. I will look it up immediately in my copy.
Drac, a lot of your points are digressive.But where in hell do you get any impartial survey whihc states that 50% of British Muslims are radicals, or even sympathise with radicals? Do you know how many British citizens that would be??
I am terribly sorry that you lost a close friend in the Brussels bombing. Sad to say, a lot of people in Manchester now know what you feel like, and I feel very uplifted by their desire to remain tolerant of Muslims. That’s what makes us different from the killers; that’s what makes the religious toleration in our society worth defending.
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This reply was modified 7 years, 7 months ago by
sceptical guy.
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This reply was modified 7 years, 7 months ago by ChatHostUK.
I would be very interested in where this quotation appears in the Koran. I’d be grateful if you gave me chapter and verse.
I think he is refering to Surah 9:5 “When the sacred months are over slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. If they repent and take to prayer and render the alms levy, allow them to go their way. God is forgiving and merciful.“, which referes specifically to pagans, but there are many similar verses that apply to athiests and polytheists in general.
Drac, a lot of your points are digressive.But where in hell do you get any impartial survey whihc states that 50% of British Muslims are radicals, or even sympathise with radicals? Do you know how many British citizens that would be??
I’ll try and find one of the studies later.
One or two,three or four,Shame on you!!
The thread was set up for people to show respect to the children and parents who lost there lifes on Monday for no fault of there own.
NOT for you to bring religion into it again.
If not for the children or the parents have some respect for the thread and yourself!!
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Thank you, drac.
It’s relevant to the sickening slaughter of innocents in Manchester because of accusations that Islam is behind this, rather than a version so radical that it has led al quaeda, hardly the most peace-like group, to expel them form its ranks. ISIS really is a death cult.
If rude boy is referring to another verse, then I hope he enlightens us, but
Sura 9.5 does not say kill all infidels wherever you find them and should not be used in such a dishonest way.. Read the verse in its context. and you see that it’s quite the opposite.
It refers to the foundation of a Muslim state when it is at war with those attempting to destroy Islam. The Koran stresses the need for peace treaties to be made and respected, and then asks the question of what to do with the treachery of an enemy which breaks the peace treaty. It advocates the conversion of the enemy to Allah, as can be expected from one of the two great conversion faiths (the other is Christianity). Conversion is always the first duty, not killing. If the treacherous enemy, whose peace-like calls cannot be trusted, is not heeding the call of Allah, then the most vigorous war needs to be conducted against him, including ambushing, arresting, slaying.
It is not about killing all infidels, but a treacherous enemy of a state which is at war with the Muslim State, and whose word cannot be trusted.
That is very different from what rude boy is saying. He must come up with another verse, or admit he’s wrong.
There are too many people who want a religious war in this country to distort the meaning of the Koran to make it appear that it’s Islam whihc advocates this mass slaughter of the innocents.
It’s not Islam. It’s ISIS and their sympathisers.
I’m NOT a Muslim by the way, in spite of accusations from past jc members. I don’t find Islam attractive at all. But I don’t lie about it.
I look forward to seeing a different verse of the Koran form rude boy – or an apology!
One or two,three or four,Shame on you!! The thread was set up for people to show respect to the children and parents who lost there lifes on Monday for no fault of there own. NOT for you to bring religion into it again. If not for the children or the parents have some respect for the thread and yourself!!
Somer, I see the thread as showing our sorrow at the slaughter of innocents, and the respect and deep sympathy for their parents and friends, and respect for the city of Manchester.
When people say Islam is responsible, the people of Manchester demonstrated their disgust and booed them off the streets. As I said, this shows that we are better than the killers; our society and our way of life and our respect for life shines compared with their way of death.
The discussion I reply to is relevant, because of the cause of the slaughter. That’s how I see the thread; I’m sorry if you see it differently, but I am trying to be respectful.
When people say Islam is responsible, the people of Manchester demonstrated their disgust and booed them off the streets. As I said, this shows that we are better than the killers; our society and our way of life and our respect for life shines compared with their way of death.
I don’t actually agree with this at all, they have the right to freedom of speech, and they should not have been shut down. A society that treats disgreement with disgust is not one that I wish to live in.
I’d have thought it was a given that anyone of sound mind or with a shread of decency would have compassion for people butchered by evil… we don’t need continually to read RIP comments from people behind a computer to confirm that. I think I speak for everyone on the board when I state how reviled and disgusted we all are and have sorrow for the people that have died…. continually stating the obvious clutching candles or cuddly toys is not going to accomplish anything other than make people feel better about themselves. It won;t help the dead, the families or prevent any future occurrences so it’s in effect a selfish act from the people typing it purely to make themselves sleep easier at night without actually accomplishing anything
What will make a difference is tackling radical views or as society likes to coin it – ” extremism” which is rife in the UK whether people want to accept it or not. All faith schools, mosques are breeding grounds for the next Jihadi John who was actually brought up and educated on these shores and the continual unchecked doctrine of evil which many may say constitutes extreme islam is fed to vulnerable young people here with no one effectively tackling the problem incase they are labelled racist or shouted down by people with fairly limited brains unable to distinguish between race and religion that we continually see on these threads. Criticising Islam is not racist, it’s a behavioural mindset where skin tone is irrelevant and is directly responsible for many of the atrocities we see day after day all over the world.
No one is saying ” all muslims are evil” but they follow an extremely dangerous book in the form of the quran conducive to division / inciting hate crime upon “non muslims ” (infidels )which is what their entire religion is based upon that is interpreted either literally in the form of Isis or simply ignored in parts by the majority … so called ” moderate muslims”.
This is a direct quote from the Quran
Quran 9:5 (the infamous verse of the sword inciting mass murder):
“Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.”
Verse 9:5 teaches Muslims to commit mass-murder. The kafirs must either convert to Islam, who would keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate (zakat), or be murdered. Command for unconditional slaying of humans, God’s own creations, by other humans – when presented as a sacred teaching of the almighty Creator – becomes a most evil teaching and is not conducive to any kind of civilised living.
If people are to believe that quotes like this and others contained in a holy book that an entire religion is based upon are not both unfit for purpose in any civilised society and inherently dangerous then by all means keep typing RIP and ” we stand together ” on social media outlets but it won’t change the crux of the problem until people fully understand what Islam actually is.
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Quran 9:29:
“Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.”
Here, Allah the Islamic God commands Muslims to attack and kill the so-called ‘people of the book’ (i.e. Jews and Christians), until they are defeated and submitted to the supremacy of Islam and, in willing humiliation, pay jizya (submission) tax to Muslims.
Verse 33.50 says:
“O Prophet! surely We have made lawful to you your wives whom you have given their dowries, and those [slaves] whom your right hand possesses out of those whom Allah has given to you as prisoners of war, and the daughters of your paternal uncles and the daughters of your paternal aunts, and the daughters of your maternal uncles and the daughters of your maternal aunts who fled with you; and a believing woman if she gave herself to the Prophet, if the Prophet desired to marry her – specially for you, not for the (rest of) believers; We know what We have ordained for them concerning their wives and those whom their right hands possess in order that no blame may attach to you; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful”.
The term “possessions of the right hand” mean slaves. It is expressly stated that Muhammad’s slaves, which he attained as a share of the captives in raiding infidels communities, were actually given to him by Allah Himself. Allah also makes raping them halal for Muhammad (and his Muslim followers). We have seen this in towns like Rotheram where people follow these teachings literally but people are too frightened to speak out incase they are labelled racist
The verse also gives a special privilege to Muhammad to marry as many wives as he desires, beyond the restriction of four wives for ordinary Muslims. When God’s teachings encourage a people to wage wars to capture the women for raping as well as encourages His holy prophet to engage in unrestrained marriage for sexual gratification, there can’t be a teaching as evil as this and illustrates again what a vile religion this is if indeed it can be called ” a religion”. By all means carry on typing RIP but it wont address the real issues.
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You’re right to say that respect and horror over the mass murder doesn’t exclude serious discussion of what lay behind it,
but er
you don’t seem to have read my answer to 9.5, given above. It doesn’t mean kill all infidels wherever they are, so it#’s not a justification of mass slaughter of innocents as happened in Manchester.
I reprint what is actually meant in the Koran at the end of this post.
You need to read it in context. The same goes for 9.29, where fighting means something specific. The killing of innocents is rejected by the Koran whihc argues that fighting for Allah, jihad, does NOT involve killing, as explained earlier in the sura (9.20).
The quotes about Mohammed’s interest in women are not relevant to this thread.
It’s not Islam whihc is carrying out these attacks. It’s radical Muslims of a particular kind.
The actual meaning of 9.5
Sura 9.5 does not say kill all infidels wherever you find them and should not be used in such a dishonest way.. Read the verse in its context. and you see that it’s quite the opposite.
It refers to the foundation of a Muslim state when it is at war with those attempting to destroy Islam. The Koran stresses the need for peace treaties to be made and respected, and then asks the question of what to do with the treachery of an enemy which breaks the peace treaty. It advocates the conversion of the enemy to Allah, as can be expected from one of the two great conversion faiths (the other is Christianity). Conversion is always the first duty, not killing. If the treacherous enemy, whose peace-like calls cannot be trusted, is not heeding the call of Allah, then the most vigorous war needs to be conducted against him, including ambushing, arresting, slaying.
It is not about killing all infidels, but a treacherous enemy of a state which is at war with the Muslim State, and whose word cannot be trusted.
But can i also ask please remember when you’re slinging your racist or religious remarks about that many taxi drivers offering free rides home last night were Muslim, a number of doctors rushing to hospitals on there days off and working through the night to help keep people alive will be Muslim, the police officers desperately trying to reunite families and apprehend these psychopaths this morning will be Muslim.
You are the only person to have mentioned race, maybe you should think about why you have done so.
These people who carried out this devastating attack are not Muslims, they are ISIS a terrorist cult
ISIS follows the Wahabi interpretation of islam, the same as Saudi Arabia. Are you claiming that Saudis are also not muslim?
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This reply was modified 7 years, 7 months ago by
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