Let’s talk about Islam

@jen_jen wrote:

I wasn’t aware that Islam was a taboo subject, I thought it was more religion in general.

That’s cool, some people might not think it’s a taboo subject. I think it is though personally, and I think there will probably be a lot of other people who thinks it is as well – at least more than enough to warrant talking about it more anyway. I would also say that the taboo is definitely focused upon Islam specifically more so than just “religion” in general. It seems to be that only Islam makes people feel as though they have to walk on egg shells when talking about it due to the fear of offending and upsetting anybody and then being called a racist or a bigot etc. This seems especially prevalent within the public media.

I also wasn’t aware that talking about Islam equated to racism or being abusive, certainly no more than any other religion. Not unless you join the message boards of certain “political” parties of course…

Right it isn’t, we’re in agreement: just talking about Islam does not equate to racism or being abusive in any way, and I would extend this here to include any perceived (reasonable) criticism towards Islam that may come up within those talks as well.

I’ve unfortunately noticed countless examples of people who have been attacked for simply talking about Islam though, and especially when airing any perceived (reasonable) criticism. A recent incident that comes to mind straight away is in a US interview in which the guy in the next Batman film (Ben Affleck) tries to shout down another guy called Sam Harris, merely for him making a few reasonable observations and points about Islam and the Middle East.

Check it out:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vln9D81eO60

Hopefully we can both persuade anybody who (like Ben Affleck) might think it is racist, abusive, bigoted etc. to simply talk about and/or reasonably criticise Islam, to reconsider their stance, because it isn’t.

Have you prejudged us before the discussion has even started?

I don’t think I’ve really prejudged anybody no, just sharing things from my own perspective that’s all.
Some might agree and others might disagree, it’s all good.

I’d say the “discussion” has already started though.

@kent f OBE wrote:

Ok BB…I think there is an element of truth in your post touching on the taboo bit. Debates like this will inevitably turn into a slanging match, it’s called passion….I don’t know much about Islam, or any other faith that isn’t mine in fact thinking about it I don’t know that much about mine either :lol: …..to be quite honest I personally don’t need to know any more….I personally don’t need to be educated for any purpose on Islam to make an impact or difference in my life, just like other religions. Most people have basic understanding….when one learns and tolerates humanity that is when we can have a debate like this regarding people of other faiths and religions and beliefs. (I will add as the thread grows)

Brilliant, glad we agree.
I’d imagine a lot of people think similarly to you in that they don’t know much about Islam or think that they need to know much about it. Hopefully things said in here will make you curious to know a bit more about it though, but otherwise that’s completely cool. I guess this sort of thing will appeal to some more so than others.
What religion do you follow btw if you don’t mind me asking?

@sceptical guy wrote:

I’m happy for serious subjects to be discussed here, as well as happy birthdays and slag-off humour.

So….

waits for the substance from this person who is obviously unbiased – s/he tells us so

I haven’t claimed anywhere that I’m unbiased, and I have absolutely no problem in stating that my stance is that I find a lot of things about Islam very objectionable – as per my understanding of it. However this doesn’t mean that I’m prepared to deliberately distort it though to make it look bad. I want to try to present it as accurately and as fairly as I can so that it can be talked about and so that people can then make their own minds up about things.

it’s already growing and s/he hasn’t said anything yet :wink:

I’d say I have but yeah, the juicy bits are definitely yet to come. I think the thread still serves its purpose without me even having to type anything really though.

@irish_lucy wrote:

All religions can be dangerous when taken to the extreme.

Underlying this statement is one big assumption that I would say is wrong — that the core teachings of all religions are the same; they’re not. Because not all religions are the same, then it means that they will each encourage those who adhere to them towards thinking and behaving in different ways. One religion taken to the extreme by a very devout worshiper of it, does not necessarily equate to another religion taken to the extreme by a similarly devout worshiper of it. Likewise one religion can encourage a lot more people to think and behave in some particular ways than a different religion could and would do

The ISIS is a small group of extremist Muslims, they do not represent the whole Muslim community just like the Irish Catholics who hide behind the IRA are not a true representation to all Irish.

I’m not quite sure what you mean here when you say that Irish Catholics who hide behind the IRA do not represent all Irish people, but yes generally ISIS Muslims are a relatively small group of Muslims and do not represent all Muslims, absolutely.

Whether ISIS can be said to represent Islam though is a completely different matter…
If ISIS can be said to represent Islam, then that means there’s potentially millions of other Muslims around the globe that will have – or at least who could develop – a lot of the same beliefs, values and goals as ISIS have.
This ought to be a massive cause for concern to any non-Muslim who looks on in disgust at ISIS, and also a massive incentive for people to become interested in and to learn about Islam.

BB, the next time you start a thread you’d probably be better off having all your info ready and not to reserve places to post later esp when a thread goes up a few pages not many will go back to read first page.

I just wanted to have confidence that it isn’t going to be deleted before I start posting stuff really, otherwise it would be a waste of time writing things up. I did think about this though and I realised that the title can be edited to point people towards updates on the first page – which solves the problem of people ignoring the first page. Likewise the updates that do appear on the first page, solves the problem of people ignoring the (important) info that accumulates throughout the middle pages. Thank you for the heads up though.

@sceptical guy wrote:

Lucy’s right –

a thread develops as a discussion. What BB is in danger of (intending) is to set aside two posts at the start to create an essay, on which all our posts are just a commentary.

Lol that’s not going to happen, but I won’t deter you too much from thinking that it will if that’s what you’re inclined to think.

Sorry, BB, you have yet to gain my trust. You remind me of an earlier post on Islam with the assumption that Islamists are all liars, lying for the sake of the True Belief. That thread betrayed a profound lack of understanding of Islam in today’s world.

The only thing that really happened in that thread was the pointing out of some Islamic doctrine, which then quickly descended into attacks on Christianity rather than really addressing the main point. I will discuss that too in this thread though so by all means critique it if you think it doesn’t portray Islam correctly.

But I may be wrong – please continue, remembering to keep it interesting. It’s a discussion, not an essay which operates on these boards.

Absolutely.
I just want to point out here that I’m generally going to do my own thing in here by posting a few serious posts every now and then which I can present through the updates/index on page 1, so I hope nobody reading this will feel put off from posting so as to not mess up any supposed direction or “order” of the topic. If anybody wants to bring up certain issues or observations etc. at any point in time, then go for it (which already seems to be happening which is good). I’m tending to write quite a lot in replies to lots of people at the moment, but I’ll try to keep things shorter and hopefully take more of a back seat when things get rolling.

@sceptical guy wrote:

BB sounds like the rev..claims to be a leading authority on what Islam really is and ends up claiming something bizarre…

Again, just as you stated before that I said I was unbiased – when I never even said that; you’re now suggesting that I’ve claimed to be a leading authority on what Islam really is – when I haven’t.

I refer you to the following:
@bb wrote:

“I haven’t claimed anywhere that I’m unbiased, and I have absolutely no problem in stating that my stance is that I find a lot of things about Islam very objectionable – as per my understanding of it.“

I’m completely open to all counter evidence and rebuttals to everything I post, which is why I will especially value the input of all Muslims who may post in here.

Meanwhile:

@sceptical guy wrote:

You remind me of an earlier post on Islam with the assumption that Islamists are all liars, lying for the sake of the True Belief. That thread betrayed a profound lack of understanding of Islam in today’s world.

@sceptical guy wrote:

There are major differences n interpreting Islam, though, as there are in any religion. Not every Christian wants to burn their opponent at the stake, or feels the duty to wave their hands in the air shouting hallelujah, and most Moslems abhor violence, interpreting jihad in the same way that Christians interpret evangelical conversion.

@sceptical guy wrote:

No substance in his long post as to what he really thinks Islam is, but for one little snippet … Indicates to me a genuine ignorance of the topic here,

It seems that you’re a leading authority on what Islam really is, yourself?
What is your background with Islam?
(if you don’t mind me asking)

No substance in his long post as to what he really thinks Islam is, but for one little snippet

I’m not sure what you mean here?

@skeptic_guy wrote:

No substance in his long post as to what he really thinks Islam is, but for one little snippet
[BB quoted here]
Indicates to me a genuine ignorance of the topic here, It’s like saying that the Seventh Day Adventists may be only a small proportion of Christians, but they represent the true Christianity.

I think you’re responding to an argument that I’ve not even made.
Please read what I typed again, I will highlight the important bits:

@bb wrote:

generally ISIS Muslims are a relatively small group of Muslims and do not represent all Muslims, absolutely.

Whether ISIS can be said to represent Islam though is a completely different matter…
If ISIS can be said to represent Islam, then that means there’s potentially millions of other Muslims around the globe that will have – or at least who could develop – a lot of the same beliefs, values and goals as ISIS have.
This ought to be a massive cause for concern to any non-Muslim who looks on in disgust at ISIS, and also a massive incentive for people to become interested in and to learn about Islam.

It’s hypothetical, I’ve not stated whether ISIS represents a “true Islam” or not.
Merely that IF ISIS do represent Islam, then because Islam is so prevalent everywhere around the world, then it may mean that there’s potentially lots of other Muslims having or acquiring the same beliefs and attitudes as ISIS have, purely on the basis of them also following Islam. Is that so unreasonable?

@skeptic_guy wrote:

please substantiate a rather bizarre claim fully, rather than play the wo/man who may be persecuted merely for saying they don’t agree with Islam. I don’t agree with Islam, BB. Nobody’s going to ban you. Just be as serious as you claim – please.

I’m not sure what you’re asking of me?
And I’ve already stated that I find things in Islam very objectionable so I don’t think I can really be any clearer there. I find your responses pretty bizarre in themselves in all honestly.

I will post the intro in the next few days and hopefully we can then crack on with the more interesting areas within Islam – although I’m not in any rush. Seeing as you generally seem to lean towards defending Islam though, then your input and critique about what I’ll post will most certainly be greatly appreciated.