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Posts
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drac,
I could present arguments on democratising the EU, and of the rejoining of the EU without joining the eurozone, but it would be a waste of space and time. We are leaving, and unless we decide to rejoin, then it would involve a discussion of the relations of the EU Parliament to the Commission, amendments of treaties such as Maastricht etc, which would take up a lot of time and detract from the main point.
The fact is that the people of Britain did not vote for a hard brexit, or a soft brexit, or anything other than to leave the EU. That was not the wish fo the majority fo the elctorate, but of 36% of the electorate. 64% of the electorate did not vote to leave the EU. It was a small majority of those who voted.
The importance of Richmond is not in the fact that a majority of the country want a soft brexit – I have no idea whether they do or don’t, and neither does anybody here.
Its importance is that a large number of people are annoyed enough about the campaign and the vote to vote against Theresa May’s government. The overturning of a Tory majority of 23000 is very big in teerms of political realities, especially after the similar consitutency of Witney nearly did the same thing.
To me, it’s great news. It’s a warning shot of the most powerful kind and May is not so foolish as to ignore it. She is in danger of losing a big minority of Tory voters, as represented by the superb Anna Soubry. That means she is in danger of losing the next election, even if she does keep the majority of Tory voters on her side.
She has to balance her approach more, and not allow the Tories to come across as UKIP-lite. The UKIP-Tory right approach is not the majority, either.
Corbyn seems to be finally getting his act together too with regard to Article 50. Good. A soft brexit is in with a chance, though not certain. I’m keepiong my fingers crossed again.
The other point I make is incontrovertible – if Britain moves into economic catastrophe after leaving the EU, then we may need to either rejoin or repatch the EU together again. We aren’t in a catastrophe, but it could happen. Democracy is allowing people to change their mind when circumstances change. It didn’t stop on 24 June, after the referendum, as some seem to think.
drac, I could present arguments on democratising the EU, and of the rejoining of the EU without joining the eurozone,
Please don’t for pity’s sake
And if we leave we’ll be fine we were fine before we’ll be fine again.. the EU will fall apart anyway won’t be there to rejoin
That was not the wish fo the majority fo the elctorate, but of 36% of the electorate. 64% of the electorate did not vote to leave the EU. It was a small majority of those who voted.
I see this argument alot, and it’s a very bad one. If the people who didn’t vote wanted to stay in the EU, they would have voted to remain.
And I don’t really see why you see this as a loss for the Conservative party, they were not running in this election. They might have kept the seat if they did, they might still have lost it. You don’t know, and neither does anyone else.
If a generaly election was called now, I would still predict a near complete wipe out for both the Lib Dems and for Labour, maybe even for SNP to lose some seats to the Tories in Scotland.
Corbyn seems to be finally getting his act together too with regard to Article 50. Good. A soft brexit is in with a chance, though not certain. I’m keepiong my fingers crossed again.
Corbyn will never get anywhere near power, nobody takes him seriously as an oposition figure outside of the far left branch of labour members.
Democracy is allowing people to change their mind when circumstances change. It didn’t stop on 24 June, after the referendum, as some seem to think.
The last referendum on ‘EU’ membership was in 1975, you can have a referendum on rejoining in 2057
.Please don’t for pity’s sake And if we leave we’ll be fine we were fine before we’ll be fine again.. the EU will fall apart anyway won’t be there to rejoin
The world isn’t the same as when we joined, and we had to cut ties with the commonwealth to join it. It’s not quite that simple.
Seems that Richmond elected someone who can’t deal with light-hearted criticism.
I don’t really see why you see this as a loss for the Conservative party, they were not running in this election. They might have kept the seat if they did, they might still have lost it. You don’t know, and neither does anyone else. If a generaly election was called now, I would still predict a near complete wipe out for both the Lib Dems and for Labour, maybe even for SNP to lose some seats to the Tories in Scotland.
If this isn’t clutching at straws, I don’t know what is. If Theresa May is foolish enough to stick her head in the UKIP-lite bucket of shit and imagine that the strong brexit Tory minority won’t repeat what they’ve done at Witney and Richmoond, then she deserves to lose. I don’t get the impression that she is so politically naive.
You seem to know a lot about the future, drac. I seem to remember people laughing a brexit victory to scorn, and Trump just caused the most incredible hilarity when he announced his candidacy. Long ago, I learned the first political lesson – don’t predict the future, especially when times are so volatile.
The last referendum on ‘EU’ membership was in 1975, you can have a referendum on rejoining in 2057
. Sorry, drac, while we remain a democracuy, it doesn’t work like that. A referendum is allowed any time parliament agrees to one, and they are merely advisory.
I don’t like referendums – a figleaf for dictatorship, they’ve been called,. A general election would do the trick.
As it is, the question is not over whether brexit – barring a catastrophe, that’s going ahead – but whether a soft or a hard brexit. That is very much up in the air, as EU members seem determined at the moment to force a hard Brexit, but at least we can exert control over our government’s attitude, and ensurte that it’s not UKIP-lite.
I do get the impression that you people are determined to have brexit even if it leads to intense misery and poverty in our country, even if it means people are not allowed to change the mistake they mde on 23 June. Surely, I’m wrong?
If this isn’t clutching at straws, I don’t know what is. If Theresa May is foolish enough to stick her head in the UKIP-lite bucket of shit and imagine that the strong brexit Tory minority won’t repeat what they’ve done at Witney and Richmoond, then she deserves to lose. I don’t get the impression that she is so politically naive.
It’s not clutching at straws, it’s just reality. If they didn’t field a candidate, there’s no way you can say that they lost the election. I’ll be honest, you seem like the politically naive one if you think that the Lib Dems can win a general election after their last performance.
Just listen to the interview I linked in my previous post, the MP Richmond elected is both incompetent and a coward, terminating the interview over very basic questions.
Sorry, drac, while we remain a democracuy, it doesn’t work like that. A referendum is allowed any time parliament agrees to one, and they are merely advisory.
It was a joke, Skep. But not all referenda are advisory, and this one was advertised as binding by the remain campaign.
I don’t like referendums – a figleaf for dictatorship, they’ve been called,. A general election would do the trick.
That is one of the strangest things i’ve ever heard someone say. A dictator would never ask, or care what the population thinks about an issue.
As it is, the question is not over whether brexit – barring a catastrophe, that’s going ahead – but whether a soft or a hard brexit. That is very much up in the air, as EU members seem determined at the moment to force a hard Brexit, but at least we can exert control over our government’s attitude, and ensurte that it’s not UKIP-lite.
What about people who want a ‘UKIP-lite’ government, should they not be listened to?
I do get the impression that you people are determined to have brexit even if it leads to intense misery and poverty in our country, even if it means people are not allowed to change the mistake they mde on 23 June. Surely, I’m wrong?
I can’t speak on behalf of all leave voters, but I believe some things are more important than money, one of those is freedom and the democratic process that protects it. However, I don’t believe we we be any poorer after leaving.
The ruling political elite and their middle class supporters may well sneer at UKIP, but it wasn’t UKIP who left vast swathes of the working class jogging behind their corporatist middle class bandwagon that only they, the middle class benefited from. If UKIP make inroads into labour strongholds up North then they will become a major political force in the UK, if. America mocked trump and look what happened, similar in UK for Brexit. The political class are out of touch, always have been, but especially at this particular point in history.
It’s not clutching at straws, it’s just reality. If they didn’t field a candidate, there’s no way you can say that they lost the election. I’ll be honest, you seem like the politically naive one if you think that the Lib Dems can win a general election after their last performance. Just listen to the interview I linked in my previous post, the MP Richmond elected is both incompetent and a coward, terminating the interview over very basic questions.
Nope. This byelection was only about brexit. The attempt to make Heathroow the issue didn’t wash, as no major candidate opposed Goldsmith on Heathrow. It was a referendum on the EU, and on hard brexit in particualr. All the campaign literature was about that. That was how the papers reported it, and my lad fully confirmed it. He would agree with you about the Lib Dem MP, and pointed the incident out when it happened. he hated voting for her. But it was a referendum on hard brexit, so he did.
I don’t think the Lib Dems will win the next election, though who knows???. They are not the important issue. The fact is that Richnmond was a genuinely safe Tory seat, and they elected a Lib Dem incompetent (her incompetence was apparently demonstrated during the campaign, I am told) because it was about hard brexit.
It’s not the Lib Dems who won. It’s May’s hard brexit which lost – locally. After Witney, where the Tories saw a similar 19% swing against them on this very issue, it is a very serious warning to May that she is in danger of losing a significant proportion of Tory support if she is going to be UKIP-lite.
Fascinating to see how it plays out in the next couple of years.
I don’t like referendums – a figleaf for dictatorship, they’ve been called,. A general election would do the trick.
That is one of the strangest things i’ve ever heard someone say. A dictator would never ask, or care what the population thinks about an issue.
You should read French history more carefully. The Bonapartists were very keen on referendums. They could be fixed, opinion could be manipulated, and the result gave them legitimacy. de gaulle was prettykeen on them too – they suited his quasi-Bonapartist approach to a presidential, rather than a parliamentary democracy.
There is also such a thing as totalitarian democracy, in which a refendum could play a key part. The Bonapartes were not totalitarian democrats though – the Jacobins were. It’s usually a left-wing phenomenon. I have grown gradually to fear it.
I do get the impression that you people are determined to have brexit even if it leads to intense misery and poverty in our country, even if it means people are not allowed to change the mistake they mde on 23 June. Surely, I’m wrong?
I can’t speak on behalf of all leave voters, but I believe some things are more important than money, one of those is freedom and the democratic process that protects it. However, I don’t believe we we be any poorer after leaving.
Fair enough, drac, but I am also keen on freedom and the democratic process that protects it. If the majority of voters agree with you about poverty and what you seem to mean by freedom, then the brexiteers will have no problem.
If they don’t, then you’d better hope that the economic problems are going to be transitory and non-serious. Who knows? They may not be.
I don’t think the Lib Dems will win the next election, though who knows???. They are not the important issue. The fact is that Richnmond was a genuinely safe Tory seat, and they elected a Lib Dem incompetent (her incompetence was apparently demonstrated during the campaign, I am told) because it was about hard brexit.
If the Lib Dems actually did what they were suppose to do, and be centrist / centre right liberals then I would probably vote for them. But the whole party seems to be centre left progressives for some reason.
It’s not the Lib Dems who won. It’s May’s hard brexit which lost – locally. After Witney, where the Tories saw a similar 19% swing against them on this very issue, it is a very serious warning to May that she is in danger of losing a significant proportion of Tory support if she is going to be UKIP-lite.
Even if this were true, it would probably mean picking up support from Labour voters who were abandoned by Corbyn. Labour got less votes in Richmond than they have members, this isn’t an insignificant section of the voter base.
You should read French history more carefully. The Bonapartists were very keen on referendums. They could be fixed, opinion could be manipulated, and the result gave them legitimacy. de gaulle was prettykeen on them too – they suited his quasi-Bonapartist approach to a presidential, rather than a parliamentary democracy.
I’ve never really heard of this so I don’t know how true it is.
But i’m pretty sure that Napoleon didn’t have to get false votes past neutral third part observers or CCTV cameras, or contend with the internet when manipulating public opinion. It’s much easier to make these systems work properly now than it was 200 years ago.
There is also such a thing as totalitarian democracy, in which a refendum could play a key part. The Bonapartes were not totalitarian democrats though – the Jacobins were. It’s usually a left-wing phenomenon. I have grown gradually to fear it.
I think I would still prefer that to the totalitarian communists that the left-wing is today.
Fair enough, drac, but I am also keen on freedom and the democratic process that protects it. If the majority of voters agree with you about poverty and what you seem to mean by freedom, then the brexiteers will have no problem.
I think that’s why most people voted to leave, but I really don’t have any information to say.
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