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It seems you have to be either pro-Arab or pro_Israeli in this argument there is no middle ground – no wonder there will never be peace
If you take the arguments of Bass Slayer etc on previous topics – they say look at the history books.
Well as far as history goes this land belonged to the Jews . Israel became a nation about 1300 BC , 2,000 years before the rise of Islam .
King David established the city of Jerusalem as the capital of the whole Land of Israel Mohammed never came to Jerusalem .
After the Romans conquered Jerusalem 2,000 years ago – the Jews were expelled – they didn’t start to return to their country until the 1st half of the 20th century
It wasn’t until the Jews re-inhabited their historic homeland of Judea and Samaria that the myth of the Palestinian Nation was created
There is no language known as Palestinian , or any Palestinian culture distinct from any of the other Arab Nations in the Middle East – and there has never been previously a land known as Palestine governed by Palestinians
The Arabs instigated 4 wars against Israel – all of which Israel won and after each ne the Israeli army withdrew from most of areas they captured
When the 7 Arab countries attacked Israel in 1948 it created a huge mass of Arab refugees – which were intentionally not integrated into the Arab countries to which they fled – even though the Arab Nations are some 700 times the size of Israel
The UN partition plan of 1947 was rejected by all of the Arab countries Arab leadership in Israel and surrounding countries planned a Jihad against Israel , encouraging Arabs to leave Israel , promising their return after the war .Seems to me like the Arabs got it wrong somewhere
They are all arabs, they merely worship differently, One the Torah, one the Koran, its the mindset that makes the difference, the Jews believe they descend from Abrahan, and all his children shall occupy the land from the east of the River Jordan, to the Mediteraen sea.
This is a story without basis, you can’t live your life believing a myth, using it as an excuse to invade and kill those you see are in your way,
Since they were allocated an area in 1948, they have taken many areas they have no right to, they signed agreements about the Palestinian population, they have broken every one,
Iraq was an illegal war by international law, just for a regime change, the same applies to Palestine.
Drivel’s history of that area is predictably flawed. First of all, the Hebrews were not the original inhabitants of that land, the Canaanites were. They arrived there in 3000 bc, the Hebrews moved there a long time later. Secondly the jews did not have continuous rule over that land there were several people such as the assyrians who ruled there over the centuries before the Romans arrived. The land had been called Palestine since the days of antiquity, so the idea that “Palestine” is a modern myth is sheer absurdity.
Drivel also says that Israel gave back most of the land it took after each war which again is complete nonsense considering something like 60% of the West Bank is covered in illegal Israeli settlements. There is also the Golan heights which were taken from Syria and are still under Israel occupation.
The next flaw in drivel’s argument is that the refugees were fleeing from the Arab armies. He’s failed to mention the actions of the zionist militant groups that were involved in massacring palestinians such as the massacre at Deir Yassin. People often forget that Israel was founded by “terrorists”. It is true that some refugees fled the fighting but to imply that they were simply running away once the arab armies entered the scene is untrue.
Of course the arab states didn’t integrate the refugees into their own population because refugees have the right to return to their homelands. To integrate refugees would have been a rejection of that inalienable right.
Finally, the idea of a jihad by the arab states against Israel is another load of crap because most of the governments if I remember correctly were secular e.g. Syria, Egypt, Iraq, Jordan
One of the biggest problems of the Palestinians is that they are constantly the subject of disinformation campaigns. Lies are spread about them such as there were no Palestinians in Palestine until the 1940s, there was no palestinian history, palestinians hide behind women and children, etc. It’s all crap aimed at demonizing them.
There are some points I’d like to pick up on here, I think.
@Mr Bigstuff wrote:
The land had been called Palestine since the days of antiquity, so the idea that “Palestine” is a modern myth is sheer absurdity.
The area certainly has been called Palestine, on and off, since antiquity. However, the idea of an autonomous state named Palestine is a new one. It is a good idea, though. I wouldn’t agree that Palestinian culture is non-existent and would support the self-determination of the people. This courtesy must be extended to Israel, though.
@Mr Bigstuff wrote:
Drivel also says that Israel gave back most of the land it took after each war which again is complete nonsense considering something like 60% of the West Bank is covered in illegal Israeli settlements. There is also the Golan heights which were taken from Syria and are still under Israel occupation.
But Israel took these lands as the outcome of defensive wars against Arab aggression. They can hardly be blamed for being unwilling to hand them back to parties whom they suspect still wish to use them for strategic advantage in future attacks.
@Mr Bigstuff wrote:
The next flaw in drivel’s argument is that the refugees were fleeing from the Arab armies. He’s failed to mention the actions of the zionist militant groups that were involved in massacring palestinians such as the massacre at Deir Yassin. People often forget that Israel was founded by “terrorists”. It is true that some refugees fled the fighting but to imply that they were simply running away once the arab armies entered the scene is untrue.
You fail to acknowledge the refugee nature of the Israelis themselves. Also, if we are to categorise the early Israeli violence as terrorism, they certainly weren’t the only ones, as can be seen here. The line between terrorist and freedom fighter is always blurred, none more so than in this case.
@Mr Bigstuff wrote:
Of course the arab states didn’t integrate the refugees into their own population because refugees have the right to return to their homelands. To integrate refugees would have been a rejection of that inalienable right.
:-s Now this really is dodgy. By this reasoning, refugees fleeing to Britain need only be accorded a tent just outside Dover and then left to rot. Israel integrated its own refugees during this period. Why are the Arab states abrogated this responsibility?
@drivel wrote:
It seems you have to be either pro-Arab or pro_Israeli in this argument there is no middle ground – no wonder there will never be peace.
I’ve certainly no vested interest in either party. My posts are simply meant to show that it is not a simple situation of Israel bad, Palestinians victimised innocents. As I mentioned before, it is my belief that individuals do evil, not whole societies. The key is arriving at a situation that does not provoke violence in any but a very few individuals. That, however, has to progress from an understanding of both sides of the history of the region. In any case, it has to progress, as always, from we are now. It never fails to amaze me that oppressed groups, which some modern Palestinians certainly are, nearly always fail to heed the techniques of probably the most successful modern struggle for freedom.
@Mr Bigstuff wrote:
Drivel’s history of that area is predictably flawed. First of all, the Hebrews were not the original inhabitants of that land, the Canaanites were
How come my history is flawed just because the books I read are from a Jewish perspective – you are readign from an Arab perspective – that’s how there are differences
I didn’t say the Hebrews were the original inhabitants – I said they had been there since 1300 BC
Of course I have omitted things – theres a shed load of things we can argue aboutPalestinians are arabs indistinguishable from arabs throughout the Middle East The Palestinian national Charter adopted by the PLO states this fact in the 1st Article
The use of the term “palestinian” for an arab ethnic group is a modern political creation which has no basis in fact , and had never had any International or academic credibility before 1967Yes Drivel, I wondered about that as well. My understanding is that there is no such group or ‘nationality’ as Palestinian. These Arabs that now rejoice in the title today are primarily nomadic arabs from a number of tribes the main one of which is the Bedouin.
Isn’t it true that they have been nomadically wandering ”Arabia” for many generations if not centuries?
@pikey wrote:
But Israel took these lands as the outcome of defensive wars against Arab aggression. They can hardly be blamed for being unwilling to hand them back to parties whom they suspect still wish to use them for strategic advantage in future attacks.
Forgetting of course, that they were in someone elses country, not defending their own. how does defending against Egypt and Syria, entitle them to Palestine. :?:
You fail to acknowledge the refugee nature of the Israelis themselves. Also, if we are to categorise the early Israeli violence as terrorism, they certainly weren’t the only ones, as can be seen
No excuse, saying they weren’t the only ones, Israel was founded in murder and terrorism, those same terrorists became the leaders, so failing to recognise Hamas is hypocricy.
As I mentioned before, it is my belief that individuals do evil, not whole societies. The key is arriving at a situation that does not provoke violence in any but a very few individuals.
But when the evil individuals control the society, the society becomes evil.
Oh dear oh dear those nasty evil wicked Israelis have done it again. Seems as though they killed 11 people when they launched two rockets at a van carrying Quassam rockets on its way to fire them into Israel (from the infamous tourist beach????).
They managed to kill two Palestinian militants in the van with the rockets but apparently a group of ‘civilians’ gathered round and tried to remove the unexploded rockets and rocket debris from the van prior to inviting sympathetic journalists to photograph the latest Israeli atrocity against entirely ”innocent” palestinians – so they fired a second missile at them to finish the job off.
Pity about the propoganda coup going wrong – still I am sure that Hamas etc will soon set up another one.
How come my history is flawed just because the books I read are from a Jewish perspective – you are readign from an Arab perspective – that’s how there are differences
Read from independent sources, and see the real situation, you cannot be objective, with only viewing one sides perspective. read both sides.
To give a reasonable POV, personal bias must be discounted,
Firstly, taking land by war is illegal and it was Israel that launched a pre-emptive strike in 1967 anyway.
As for the term Palestinian being created in 1967, what about the Philistines? Philistine is the name of an ancient people from that land. The arabic for Palestine is “Falastin” or something like that, so I guess you were wrong on that point too Drivel. Palestinians claim descent from the Canaanites and so they say their history on that land goes back 5000 years. As I said before the Hebrews moved to palestine from elsewhere in the region.
As for refugees, Jordan is full of Palestinian refugees but again the point is that you wouldn’t give a refugee citizenship if you only intended them to stay in your country on a temporary basis. So the refugee camps are there as a reminder that these people have a right to return to their own homeland. The refugee issue is a contentious issue and if it looks like the refugees have a new permanent home then it could be argued that they should stay there.
Finally, the van carrying rockets was actually an ordinary car carrying 2 militants. 9 innocent by-standers were killed by the explosion. Imagine a helicopter gunship hitting a car on your high-street and you’ll get some impression of what the Palestinians have to put up with on a regular basis.
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