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hmmmmmmmm praps i’ll wander back to some topic i know bout lol
hugsssssssss xxx
This is one issue where I find it difficult to take sides. Israelis have to face attacks on innocent people by members of a murderous jihadist group that has now been democratically elected to power in the occupied territories.
Palestinians, on the other hand, have to suffer being a prisoner-population, kept at bay by a successful and prosperous neighbour and ‘protector’ that doesn’t want to share its success and prosperity.
Since Mahmoud Ahmadinejad of Iran stuck his oar in and threatened to ‘wipe Israel off the map’, I’m sure that I’m not the only one to have thought that this effectively turned the Palestinians into a useful ‘human shield’ for Israel! (Message from Hamas to Iran: “thanks a bundle!”)
It boils down to two populations, neither of which are descended from the original Phoenician inhabitants of the Levantine coast, but both with a claim on the territory and a hatred each other, wanting exclusive control of the same country.
@bassingbourne55 wrote:
….It boils down to two populations, neither of which are descended from the original Phoenician inhabitants of the Levantine coast, but both with a claim on the territory and a hatred each other, wanting exclusive control of the same country.
I think you’re quite right on this Bas. And I guess that this is the nub of the issue.
I can fully understand the Israelis unwillingness (or outright refusal) to ‘negotiate’. What’s the point or more precisely – what is there to negotiate. The Palestinian side is never going to give way and allow the Israelis to exist, much less to continue to enjoy their hard earned prosperity. The Israelis are not going to say… OK guys you were right all along, we’ll just push off and start again somewhere else, here you are help yourselves to our country.
There seems to be (currently) some sort of status quo with each side in occupation of its bit of land. I reckon that the Palestinians would do far better to try to grow their economy instead of fighting each other and constantly needling Israel.
The fatah government under Arafat and Abbas recognized Israel and made reforms to please the international community but Israel kept moving the goalposts. It said it didn’t want to negotiate until Hamas decommissioned its weapons and disbanded. This was an absurd demand because there was no way the Fatah government could possibly bring this about especially in the absence of any peace deal. Any attempt to do it would have led to a civil war which would have been good for Israel but not for the Palestinians (divide and conquer).
Palestinians are perfectly entitled to take up arms against the army that is persecuting them. Killing soldiers of the occupying army is an act of resistance just like it was during WWII. As long as Israel is carrying out a brutal occupation of Palestinian land then Israeli soldiers will be fair game. It may not be the best tactic but there is nothing unethical about it. In fact they are perfectly justified in their actions against military targets. The taking of a prisoner must have been deliberate because it’s far easier to shoot somebody than to take them hostage and escape with them. They are hoping to arrange a prisoner swap like the exchanges that have happened in the past.
It does seem clear that the attacks by the Israeli military do breach the Geneva Conventions. It would appear that there has been needless destruction of civilian infrastructure. I mean was it really necessary to deprive the entire area of power especially when the power is needed to supply water to the population. There’s also no way to bring fuel into the area to supply back-up generators. Lord only knows how the hospitals will operate.
The funny thing is that in England there’s so much hostility towards Irish travellers who move onto travellers’ sites. Now imagine if the travellers moved into villages with tanks, bulldozers and infantry and took over the entire village moving the villagers out of their homes. How would English people react then? That’s the sort of situation the Palestinians find themselves in, so is it any wonder that some of them want to inflict harm on Israelis?
Mr B, i have to take my hat of to you. It is not often that you see such a good and unbiased argument. You have done good work here, and hopefully someone will read all you have said and see things from a Palestinian side of things for a change.
@Mr Bigstuff wrote:
The funny thing is that in England there’s so much hostility towards Irish travellers who move onto travellers’ sites. Now imagine if the travellers moved into villages with tanks, bulldozers and infantry and took over the entire village moving the villagers out of their homes. How would English people react then? That’s the sort of situation the Palestinians find themselves in, so is it any wonder that some of them want to inflict harm on Israelis?
We know how Pro_palestinian you are Mr B – but comparing the Israelis to a bunch of Irish travellers !!!!! ffs
As i have said before – if the Palestinians lay down there weapons there will be no more war If the Israelis lay down their weapons there would be no more Israel
Nasty bunch these Arabs – even the rest of the arabs in the Middle east don’t want them !!!
What’s stopping Israel from keeping its troops inside Israel? They need the troops there to protect the settlements. Why are there settlements illegally placed on Palestinian land? The hawks in Israel view the Occupied Territories as land given to them by God and therefore theirs to conquer by divine right.
Fatah bent over backwards to accomodate Israel, they did everything asked of them short of disarming their political opponents in Hamas. They have recognized Israel, they accepted the Road Map without preconditions and yet Israel has constantly refused to negotiate. Even when a ceasefire was achieved Israel wasn’t interested in talking to Fatah. All the time that there is a political stalemate the settlements keep expanding, the wall continues to be built creating a de facto annexation of Palestinian territory into the state of Israel and the Palestinians continue to be killed and denied basic human rights. This is why there are Palestinian militants. If you strip human beings of their rights, their dignity, their freedom and even of their life then the inevitable result is that you will create people hell-bent on retribution.
Remember Hamas was created in 1987 during the first uprising against the occupation. The occupation is the biggest obstacle to peace in this conflict. The Palestinian president has not asked for anything more than the Palestinians are entitled to. All that he and the PLO are asking for is for Israel to withdraw back to its recognized territory. That means Israel would have around 78% of historic Palestine and the Palestinians would have around 22%. Evidently the Israelis think a 78% – 22% deal in their favour is not enough.
Thank you for the history lesson Mr B – the one sided view of history was fascinating, but we still await the lesson.
So all this constant harping back in time and presenting a highly partial view of only some of the facts takes us nowhere. When all is said and done, Hamas IS a terrorist organisation and is recognised as such by practically the entire Western world.
Their so-called freedom fighters spend their time skulking around in balaclavas with bazookas on their shoulders trying their best to look hard. Their leaders are mainly in exile in other countries and spend their time orchestrating press releases telling everybody how hard done by they are and aren’t those Israelis soooo nasty etc etc.
Look, the answer to all this is really simple and obvious. Israel is there and it’s going to stay there. They aren’t going to negotiate. They aren’t going to simply give in and go away. The Palestinians don’t have the troops, the skills, the resources, or the money to do anything about it. They don’t have the bottle to take the Israelis on and neither do their so-called allies in the Arab world, in spite of all the boycotts and talk etc.
So how about they stop mouthing off about the situation; stop constantly needling the Israelis with their rockets and cross border raids and just get over it. If they spent as much time and energy in growing their economy as they do in terrorism they would all be a lot better off.
Maybe I can assist in explaining these odds:
10:1 for a Palestinian win. Odds are a bit short – 50,000:1 would be nearer the mark. They are a bunch of disorganised semi-literate terrorists brain-washed into killing themselves in the hope of getting hold of 70 virgins when they are dead but stupid enough to believe this rubbish. Because they wear balaclava helmets all the time (in that climate ffs!!!) their heads overheat and they can’t wash properly so the opposition can smell them downwind for 100’s of yards. Badly equipped with a few obsolete bazookas, loads of second hand ex-Soviet Army AK-47’s and dodgy ammo; and a few dozen home made Quassam rockets. No proper uniforms or logistics, no airforce, no organisation to speak of, half starved, underpaid (if paid at all) a rag tag bag of assorted terrorists. Could give US troops a good seeing to. Ostensibly supported by the Palestinian population but in reality nobody really cares about a bunch of unemployed / unemployable street thugs.
5:1 for an Israeli win. Again the odds are a bit squiffy – 10,000:3 on would more like it. Certainly the toughest, best equipped, and most effective army in the Middle East. They have scored a number of notable victories over the years and have yet to be defeated. They tend to develop their own weapons (including nuclear weapons) and in some areas lead the world – Uzi machine guns for example. Hidden ‘weapon’ – one of the finest and most respected intelligence services in the world. The enjoy tremendous support from the civilian population and are seen as guardians and protectors.
100 million: on for the US to win – nah can’t see it… more like 250:1 against. Ok they are well equipped and have loads of troops but they collectively have no bottle; totally unable to fight ‘in close and dirty’; easy targets for travelling everywhere in air conditioned HUMVEES; strong well equipped airforce but cannot fly below 10,000 feet or they get nervous and panic; plenty of previous for bombing their own side as well as claiming non-existent enemy kills. They have never won a ‘guerrilla’ war in their entire history, have had their asses booted by any old bunch of rag tag terrorists / freedom fighters; long on hot air short on decisive action; officers are unprofessional and ponce about in Raybans and shoulder holsters solely for effect. Civilian population safely at home munching hamburgers and always ready to undermine the troops at every opportunity.
Put your money on the Israelis for a certain ”win”. You fuck with them and they’ll come after you….. for ever !!!
It’s fanciful to imagine that the Palestinians can just get on with their lives while the occupation exists. How is an orange farmer for example supposed to sustain a viable business when his orchard gets chopped down and the land gets taken by the Israeli military. How can Palestinian fishermen conduct their affairs in a normal manner when their coastline is under the complete control of the Israeli government who can dictate whether or not ships are allowed out to sea and where they can sail. Palestinian airspace is under the control of the Israeli government. Israel can also control the flow of imports and exports out of Palestinian territory. We’ve also recently seen Israel arbitrarily withholding tax payments that the palestinian authority is due.
So Israel has a strangle-hold on all freight, all movement by land, sea and air, any and all palestinian land, palestinian water supplies, and on Palestinian finances. There is also the punitive damage that Israel carries out on Palestinian buildings and infrastructure. This is not an environment suitable for a country to prosper. Even the basic needs of Palestinians such as education and healthcare are impaired by the occupation because of the limited freedom of movement.
If you try defining terrorism then you will find that Israel is just as guilty of terrorism as Hamas is. Israel’s brand of terror is deadlier and more sophisticated. Some might say that Hamas is recognized as a terrorist organisation but the international community also recognizes that Israel is a rogue state with no respect for the rules and customs of war, or for basic human rights. Is a country that carries out war crimes any better or any different from a terrorist organisation? I think not. Also let’s not forget that the USA who are quick to denounce Hamas were found guilty of terrorism in Nicaragua. The USA has been a major exporter and trainer of state terror. Is terrorism carried out by the state on its population any less awful than terrorism by a militant faction? So, let’s ditch the hypocrisy.
Hamas has said it is willing to accept the 1967 borders which would effectively mean they would recgonize Israel in all but words. Is the Israeli government interested? Of course not because they want to continue stealing Palestinian land. In the absence of a peace deal we will inevitably see the return of the suicide bombers and the incursions. The cycle of violence will not stop. The fighting has been going on for almost 60 years and it won’t just magically stop all by itself. The road to peace lies through negotiation and an end to the occupation.
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