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Posts
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@tiler wrote:
In all my life I have never met so many stupid people, trying to kid everyone, the Israelis are the good guys, they are the most vicious evil minded scum on the face of this earth and those that support are as bad.
The best thing that could happen, is give Iran the bomb, and that will solve the problem, and rid this world of the foul stench of Zionism, and the cockroaches that support it.
Sorry- was this speech taken directly from Mein Kampf or just summarised?
Apparently they have two parallell objectives. First one is to rescue their kidnapped soldier. The second one is to seek and destroy the ”bomb factories” that are making all the Quassam rockets that get fired into Israel all the time.
You know I really like their style. OK so they were wrong footed when a bunch of heavily armed terrorists tunneled under the border fence and ‘invaded’ them. Now most countries would moan and whinge, complain to the United Nations, go to the World Court, hold press conferences to tell the world how awful it was and so boring on and so boring forth.
But not the Israelis. If we don’t get our guy back ASAP then we’re going to invade you – take it or leave it, ……and that’s exactly what they have done. Can’t say fairer than that.
No frigging around for weeks and weeks whilst all the pinko liberals wring their hands and try to negotiate. No dicussing ludicrous demands. Plain and simple, either you give us our guy back or we’ll come and get him the hard way…. your choice. Yup I really like their style.
@Magoo wrote:
Well going in to save a soldier and another hostage that is now being held is a mighty good excuse to kill a few more Palestinians and to pull the wool over some outside observers eyes.
Yes i think you’re right there. But the Hamas leadership, who knew well in advance all about the attack their terrorists made on Israeli territory, must surely have known that there would be massive retaliation.
however, I don’t think that a kidnap as such was planned. The terrorists wanted to attack and kill as many Israelis as possible then run for it back across the border. Snatching a hostage must have been done on the spur of the moment, given the circumstances. This might explain why the Hamas leadership was apparently wrong footed initially and denied all knowledge oe of the entire incident.
Shoot and kill a few soldiers then run for it…. who really cares??? Kidnap a soldier and you invite the wrath of the Israeli Army down on you. Looks like the Palestinians are now going to have to pay the price for the over enthusiasm of a few terrorists.
Surprisingly enough (so far anyway) in spite of totalling some bridges and a couple of power stations, there have been NO Palestinian casualties at all. What a pity as Hamas could have got some great pictures in the Media to support their quest for publicity.
Aparently the Israelis have also arrested/detained the Hamas Labour Minister and are holding him pending ”charges”. I wonder what involvement a Government Minister has in terrorism??? No doubt all will be revealed in due course.
Meanwhile I bet all the revolutionary Marxists are just gagging to produce ”historical evidence” to tell us all how the terrorists were ”justified” in their illegal action; how they were provoked into doing it; how it was in retaliation for something or other; and so on and so forth.
@Magoo wrote:
…….And can you send me some kind of link that has the Hamas Govt. absolutely knowing in advance about the action taken? I’d be interested to see your story stand up with proof.
Naturally there is no link and no ”proof” – as I suspect you knew all along. However, my speculation is based both on common sense, logical deduction, and some minor knowledge of military operations.
The terrorists dug a tunnel starting some distance from their side of the border fence and which emerged some 300 yards into Israeli territory, pretty close to a 24/7 manned watch tower. It had to have taken several days of digging to do this. The attackers were members of the ‘military wing’ of Hamas (see previous posts).
Given the logistics of tunnelling; the sheer numbers of people involved both in the clandestine digging and the removal of the spoil; the planning and preparation of this very professionally executed raid; and the high military skill levels of the terrorist attackers (i.e. they wern’t just simple farmers etc etc); it is highly unlikely that Hamas didn’t know a thing about this until it was all over.
True, the senior Government officers may not have had ‘personal’ knowledge, but I think the Americans call this ”plausible deniability” don’t they???
@Magoo wrote:
The terrorists dug a tunnel, got through to the other side, killed a couple of enemy terrorists whilst losing a couple of their own terrorists and grabbed a third terrorist to take him as hostage. Sounds pretty cut and dried to me to. And of course I/we know there is no proof regarding Govt. knowledge. But it looks good to accuse in reading huh? :wink:
Well my analysis has the benfit of being logical if nothing else.
You have to remember that the Israeli Army is an extremely professional and well trained one. They are most certaily NOT a pushover in anybody’s terms. The Palestinian terrorists managed to make a surprise attack right under the Israeli’s noses – literally – and pressed home their attack with courage and determination. They took out a tank and an APC and damned nearly captured a watchtower that dominated the whole area. If they had achieved THAT oibjective then they could have wrought major havoc all along that part of the border. It was only by sheer luck that the soldiers manning the watchtower managed to beat off the terrorists.
This operation was meticulously planned and well executed and it took a lot of balls to carry it out. The attackers had to have been pretty skilled to do this, which precludes them from being a group of local farmers getting their own back or whatever.
This is why I say that the action must have been sanctioned at high level within Hamas.
The attack on the Israeli military outpost wasn’t an act of terrorism, it was a legitimate act of resistance. There is no law against shooting enemy soldiers in a conflict. There is no law against taking enemy soldiers captive either. The wisdom of the act is questionable but its legitimacy is not.
I feel sorry for the family of the soldier taken captive because Israel’s actions are bound to lead to his death. There’s no way the soldier can be rescued because as soon as Israeli troops get anywhere near the location the soldier will be executed.
I get the feeling that the real objective of the Israeli government is to punish the palestinian people. That’s why they’re destroying infrastructure. They could just swap a few palestinian child prisoners for the israeli soldier but the Israeli government wants to posture and act tough and the result will be that everyone loses.
The biggest contradiction of this operation is that the Israeli government accuses the exiled leader of the military wing of Hamas, in Damascus, of being behind the attack on the soldiers. They also say that the palestinian government was not calling the shots and is not aware of the prisoner’s location. They even flew warplanes over the president of Syria’s home. However, 60 members of the Palestinian government have been captured by Israeli forces.
PB seems to think that the only people being killed or attacked are the Israelis who face attack from militant rockets. He conveniently overlooks all the palestinian civilians being killed by the Israeli military on a regular basis. The fact is that more palestinian civilians die than israeli civilians. Since Israel is the invader then surely the onus must be on Israel to keep its soldiers and civilians inside Israel instead of taking part in a massive land-grab thereby putting themselves in direct conflict with the Palestinians. If the Israelis leave the Palestinians alone then the Palestinians will probably leave the Israelis alone.
Hello Mr B – I kinda missed crossing swords with you for a couple of days – anyway here we go…..
@Mr Bigstuff wrote:
The attack on the Israeli military outpost wasn’t an act of terrorism, it was a legitimate act of resistance. There is no law against shooting enemy soldiers in a conflict. There is no law against taking enemy soldiers captive either. The wisdom of the act is questionable but its legitimacy is not.
As you would have guessed, we ain’t going to agree on this one are we??? The Hamas terrorist dug under the border into Israel to attack and murder uniformed soldiers in the Israeli Army. I can’t see that as resistance – more an active attack. Yes there is no ‘law’ against taking prisoners that I am aware of either – for either side !!! Usually the Israeli Army manages to kill more Palestinian terrorists than the other way round and as far as I am aware the score was 6 : 2 in the Israeli’s favour on this occasionl.
I think that we can both agree that the act itself was not very wise as it was absolutely bound to provoke massive retaliation – as is now the case.
@Mr B wrote:
I feel sorry for the family of the soldier taken captive because Israel’s actions are bound to lead to his death. There’s no way the soldier can be rescued because as soon as Israeli troops get anywhere near the location the soldier will be executed.
The Hamas terrorists don’t HAVE to murder this guy in cold blood, unless they specifically choose to do so. It is always open to them to abandon him to be found by the Israeli troops, whilst they make themselves scarce. They could do this and avoid ‘losing face’ if they wanted to. Sadly, I think they are going to murder him at the first opportunity so they can blame the Israelis for his death. Hey, they might even decapitate him on video and publish it in the internet, as other terrorist organisations have done in the past.
@Mr B wrote:
I get the feeling that the real objective of the Israeli government is to punish the palestinian people. That’s why they’re destroying infrastructure. They could just swap a few palestinian child prisoners for the israeli soldier but the Israeli government wants to posture and act tough and the result will be that everyone loses.
Well they gave their reasons for blowing up a power station and collapsing bridges as trying to make it difficult if not impossible for the terrorists to move about freely or to transport the kidnapped Israeli soldier across the border into Egypt.
I do agree that it is a pity that the average everyday citizens of Gaza will suffer because of the actions of a minority of terrorist hotheads. But remember the terrorists are not really interested in any sort of settlement, all they want is the Oxygen of world publicity for their cause. Basically I don’t believe they give a damn for the people they say the want to ‘defend’.
My gut feel on this is that capturing/kidnapping a soldier wasn’t a part of the terrorist’s plan. I think they wanted to kill as many as possible and cause mayhem, perhaps blowing up the observation tower. I don’t think they realised that by taking the soldier they would provoke this sort of massive retaliation. Just killing a few or damaging property wouldn’t have provoked an invasion.
@Mr B wrote:
The biggest contradiction of this operation is that the Israeli government accuses the exiled leader of the military wing of Hamas, in Damascus, of being behind the attack on the soldiers. They also say that the palestinian government was not calling the shots and is not aware of the prisoner’s location. They even flew warplanes over the president of Syria’s home. However, 60 members of the Palestinian government have been captured by Israeli forces.
I don’t see a ‘contradiction’ – it’s perfectly obvious that the so-called military wing of Hamas was behind or actively involved in sanctioning this attack. I have spelt out my reasons for this previously and at length to Magoo so I won’t repeat them.
I am very intrigued by the Israelis arresting 60 members of the Hamas government (I didn’t know that they had that many members). An idea has been floated this evening that they intend to put them on trial for being involved in terrorism. We shall see.
@Mr B wrote:
PB seems to think that the only people being killed or attacked are the Israelis who face attack from militant rockets. He conveniently overlooks all the palestinian civilians being killed by the Israeli military on a regular basis. The fact is that more palestinian civilians die than israeli civilians. Since Israel is the invader then surely the onus must be on Israel to keep its soldiers and civilians inside Israel instead of taking part in a massive land-grab thereby putting themselves in direct conflict with the Palestinians. If the Israelis leave the Palestinians alone then the Palestinians will probably leave the Israelis alone.
Oh if only this were the case…. but sadly it isn’t. The Hamas terrorists persist in firing off their Quassam rockets across the border into Israel and thereby provoke constant retaliation. As they can’t now send suicide bombers across, they have taken to digging under the border to kill and maim.
When all is said and done, Hamas may well be the legitimate elected government of the Palestinians, but they are and they remain a terrorist organisation. This is from not just your hated USA but even the European Union will have no dealings with them.
This whole thing does point to a split developing in Hamas, though. Over the last few days, some of the Hamas leadership seemed to be moving towards an agreement with Fatah that would have tacitly recognised Israel – a huge step. All of a sudden, an obviously long in the preparation, and therefore considered in its timing, attack on the Israeli army is mounted. I see it as a blow by the hardliners to scupper any progress. Hopefully the more progressive side of Hamas will emerge the stronger faction.
I think that you’re spot on Pikey. Hamas is hopelessly factionalised with those who would wipe Israel off the map on the one hand and those who would seek some sort of accomodation on the other.
Provoking this massive retaliation is just what the hardliners want, as for certain the Israelis will NOT be negotiating anything for a long time to come.
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