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Yes Drivel, it couldn’t possibly happen to you could it? Everyone who is ever taken in for questioning over a crime is a criminal aren’t they? It’s rare for officials and bureaucrats to make mistakes isn’t it? Everyone accused of being a communist during the McCarthy era was a communist weren’t they? Yes Drivel, it couldn’t possibly happen to you because the world is black and white and nobody ever makes mistakes or abuses their power.
Remember the notorious 82 yr old terrorist Walter Wolfgang who heckled Jack Straw and was thrown out of the auditorium? The police prevented his re-entry into the conference building under “anti-terrorism” legislation. There are also those evil terrorists who protest against arms sales to foreign dictators and get arrested under “anti-terrorism” laws. No, the state would never abuse its power Drivel so let’s give them all the power they want without limitation or over-sight. Big Brother will take care of us.
@Mr Bigstuff wrote:
Yes Drivel, it couldn’t possibly happen to you could it? Everyone who is ever taken in for questioning over a crime is a criminal aren’t they? It’s rare for officials and bureaucrats to make mistakes isn’t it? Everyone accused of being a communist during the McCarthy era was a communist weren’t they? Yes Drivel, it couldn’t possibly happen to you because the world is black and white and nobody ever makes mistakes or abuses their power.
Remember the notorious 82 yr old terrorist Walter Wolfgang who heckled Jack Straw and was thrown out of the auditorium? The police prevented his re-entry into the conference building under “anti-terrorism” legislation. There are also those evil terrorists who protest against arms sales to foreign dictators and get arrested under “anti-terrorism” laws. No, the state would never abuse its power Drivel so let’s give them all the power they want without limitation or over-sight. Big Brother will take care of us.
Yes it is RARE , hence you repeat your examples time after time
And someone has to take care of us – you help vote the Government in
Yes Drivel it’s rare for innocent people to be brought in for questioning during an investigation, so there’s no harm in torturing them. Michael Howard was asked to answer some questions by the police recently therefore he must be guilty of something isn’t that right Drivel? Some people say that innocent people occasionally end up in prison or on death row. Of course this is an absurd allegation made up by tree-hugging hippies who are soft on crime and want to appease criminals.
Yes, the UK and USA have infallible systems of justice where no mistakes are ever made. We might as well do away with the judiciary because who needs courts when nobody ever abuses their power or makes mistakes. Trials are just an invention of soppy liberals with their bleeding-heart human-rights agenda. We need summary executions and death squads to keep Britain safe from the terrorists. If you have nothing to hide you have nothing to be afraid of.
@Mr Bigstuff wrote:
Yes Drivel it’s rare for innocent people to be brought in for questioning during an investigation, so there’s no harm in torturing them. Michael Howard was asked to answer some questions by the police recently therefore he must be guilty of something isn’t that right Drivel? Some people say that innocent people occasionally end up in prison or on death row. Of course this is an absurd allegation made up by tree-hugging hippies who are soft on crime and want to appease criminals.
Yes, the UK and USA have infallible systems of justice where no mistakes are ever made. We might as well do away with the judiciary because who needs courts when nobody ever abuses their power or makes mistakes. Trials are just an invention of soppy liberals with their bleeding-heart human-rights agenda. We need summary executions and death squads to keep Britain safe from the terrorists. If you have nothing to hide you have nothing to be afraid of.
There’s nothing wrong with a trial , of course mistakes are made , of course any system is fallible
But I still don’t have any problem with holding suspected terrorists indefinitely if it is in the interests of our national safety
I’d still rather have our system than the summary execution system of the terrorists
What is it with you human rights guys – you want it both ways – sorry you can’t have it both waysSo you’d like to have a system like Israel where you can be rounded up by the military and held for years and years without ever being charged or convicted of any offence? The bottom line is that the ordinary citizen needs to be protected from mistakes and from abuse of power. Once the government takes power from people they rarely give it back. It is possible to preserve our basic civil rights and fight terrorism at the same time. The two things aren’t mutually exclusive. We don’t have to turn into some kind of fascist state to preserve our security.
I read this on the website of Human Rights Watch:
“Last year, when the Law Lords (Britain’s highest court) ruled unanimously against the use of evidence gained through torture in British courts, Lord Bingham, the senior law lord, said he was “startled, even a little dismayed” that the government could raise the question in the first place. The use of such evidence is explicitly prohibited by the UN Convention against Torture, to which Britain is bound.”
Also from HRW on the use of torture through history:
<<The argument that the anti-torture rules were “out of date,” designed for an era of “gentlemanly behaviour and white gloves,” was specious. In reality, the four core Geneva Conventions—each of which bans “cruel treatment and torture”—were agreed in 1949 with the exceptional brutality of the Second World War, in Eastern Europe and the Far East especially, very much in mind. The Geneva Conventions, like the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the European Convention on Human Rights, negotiated and agreed at approximately the same time, were intended to ensure that such nightmares would not be repeated.
The preamble to the Universal Declaration makes this context clear: “…disregard and contempt for human rights have resulted in barbarous acts which outraged the conscience of mankind… it is essential, if man is not to be compelled to have recourse, as a last resort, to rebellion against tyranny and oppression, that human rights be protected by the rule of law…” >>
Full article here: http://www.hrw.org/backgrounder/eca/uk1106/2.htm
@Mr Bigstuff wrote:
So you’d like to have a system like Israel where you can be rounded up by the military and held for years and years without ever being charged or convicted of any offence? The bottom line is that the ordinary citizen needs to be protected from mistakes and from abuse of power. Once the government takes power from people they rarely give it back. It is possible to preserve our basic civil rights and fight terrorism at the same time. The two things aren’t mutually exclusive. We don’t have to turn into some kind of fascist state to preserve our security.
Full article here: http://www.hrw.org/backgrounder/eca/uk1106/2.htm
No you don’t – but you have to fight fire with fire – if torturing a few terrorists saves the lives of a few thousand innocent people then I have nothing against it
Terrorists give up all of their human rights as far as I am concerned
So do muggers , rapists paedos etc – torture the bloody lot of thenOk. If we fight fire with fire then we aint a Democracy anymore then are we?
Were using the same tactics as the Terrorists. The fact that we’ll dispence with morals or scruples whilst dealing with them means we are no different from them.The article I provided a link for completely undermines your claims about the need to fight fire with fire. Since you obviously didn’t read it I’ll post an excerpt:
<<In the 1950s, France’s war against the rebels in Algeria was distinguished by extraordinary savagery. Torture and disappearances were widespread. Gen. Jacques Massu, a French commander in Algiers, said that torture was a “cruel necessity.” Yet France was subsequently forced out of Algeria, not least because its brutal tactics turned ordinary Algerians against its rule.
Only much later did Massu change his mind. In 2000, he told Le Monde, “Torture is not indispensable in time of war, we could have got along without it very well.” He said that France should officially admit its policies of torture and condemn them: “I think that would be a good thing. Morally torture is something ugly.”2
(Interestingly, even some in the Pentagon have acknowledged the failure of the torture policy, with reference to abuses by French forces in Algeria. In 2003, shortly after U.S. forces arrived in Baghdad, the Pentagon organized a screening of Gillo Pontecorvo’s The Battle of Algiers, with a flier which put Pontecorvo’s famous movie in perspective. The Defense Department flier summed up the message: “How to win a battle against terrorism and lose the war of ideas.”)>>
The article also points out how the military juntas of latin america used national security as an excuse to carry out torture.
Bad Manners is right, if you fight fire with fire then you turn Britain into a state that carries out state-terror. So what is the purpose of the “war on terror” if you want to be terrorized by both the state and by the terrorists?
It’s clear to me now Drivel that you don’t just want to torture suspected terrorists you want to torture all suspected criminals. There have been countless miscarriages of justice and countless cases where people have made false allegations against people e.g. the Hamiltons, John Leslie, Craig Charles, Matthew Kelly etc. so it proves that your viewpoint is totally illogical. You most certainly are a fascist if you believe suspected criminals should have no rights at all. The critical flaw in your argument is your failure to realize that mistakes and abuse of power are not as rare as you naively assume them to be.
@geoff wrote:
leave the bully’s to wave their flags and call you a freak …
as people have been saying to console Geoff’s many victims over the years.
typical gauls :roll: ,,always blamin ur problems on a bundle of sticks :roll: ,,wot da hell is wrong with fascesism anyway?,,ur all copyin ours and the greeks form of government anyway,,u hypocrits!!,,if it wasnt for us u’d all still be dancin around fires naked chantin “hail boudicca” :roll:
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