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American woman, you’ve got it all wrong. First of all the fact that there hasn’t been another attack inside America doesn’t mean that the methods used are effective. In case you forgot, British intelligence recently foiled a plot to blow up 10 US airliners over the Atlantic. It would have been a disaster on the same scale as september 11 2001. So clearly the threat hasn’t been reduced at all. In fact it has increased.
Secondly, Bush was saying today that Democratic opposition to wiretaps without a court order was a threat to America’s security. Where does it end? Once you say it’s ok for the government to listen to people’s phonecalls and read their emails without a court order then what’s to stop the government from saying that they need to read your mail, search your house, access your bank and credit card accounts, etc. whenever they want and without court approval all in the name of national security?
Lastly, I challenge you to justify the rendition of a Canadian citizen by US authorities to Syria where he was interrogated and tortured. An innocent man was effectively kidnapped and tortured. How is that justifiable? This is how screwed up America is becoming under Bush when US citizens start making excuses for torture and other human rights abuses. It seems like you don’t care about innocent people being caught up in the net. I’m reminded of the scene in the The Road To Guantanamo where a CIA agent accuses a man from Tipton of meeting Bin Laden in Afghanistan. The man then points out to the CIA agent that he was actually working at Currys (an electrical retailer) at the time of the supposed meeting. His employers were able to verify his story. That is an example of just how wrong the evidence against suspects can be. So your cavalier attitude towards people being tortured is irrational. Who knows, one day they could come knocking at your door accusing you of being a terrorist.
What would the founders of the US constitution say if they could see US citizens condoning state-sanctioned torture?
If everyone had the lapsed attitude of you Mr Bigstuff the world would be in the hands of terrorists now
It’s a different ball game now , America has to use other tactics to root out terrorsits and sleeper cells
It’s ok proclaiming the old “human rights” , but what about the rights of the people killed and maimed in terrorist bombings , plane crashes etcPerhaps there are some people wrongly arrested , but I’m sure if they are innocent they have nothing to worry about
Drivel’s old bull..shit line about “if they havent done anything wrong they have nothing to worry about”. :roll: Not one charge has ever been issued to the “suspected terrorists” at Guantanamo Bay. They can pretty much be locked up without limit of time at the convenience of the American’s, and then released after any given time, wihout any charges being brought.
Bigstuff-It’s actually already legal for American’s to have their mail or bank and credit card’s examined. Warrentless searches without probable cause is also allowed under the terms of the Patriot Act. The Patriot Act pretty much gives the US Government Cart Blanche to do anything they like, when they like. I hope we dont go the same way.
It would be a good thing if the Democrats scored a victory in the forthcoming American Elections. It would mean that Bush would have a check in his power. Bush has too much power at the moment. People with too much power always abuse it.Drivel if everyone thought like you then there would be no such thing as a free country. It astounds me that anyone can be so nonchalant when it comes to the state abusing its power. Egypt, Syria, Libya and others have to fend off the threat from islamic extremists too. Would you like to be governed like those countries are run? That’s what we are heading towards.
Quite frankly, if you’re not concerned about politicians doing away with your human rights then you’re an absolute fool. In essence, what you are saying by condoning these draconian measures is that you believe politicians and secret agents can always be trusted to behave in an impeccably honest, just and infallible manner. What sort of idiot would think like that? We don’t believe politicians 99% of the time but we’re supposed to give them carte blanche when it comes to torturing and detaining people? You must have lost your mind! The phrase “useful idiot” springs to mind when it comes to people like you. You’re just gullible plebs who are too dim to realize when you’re being shafted.
The government wanted to pass legislation that allowed terrorist suspects to be held for questioning for 90 days without charge. Fortunately, they had to back down due to opposition. Think about it, if you’re detained for 3 months and you’re innocent is your employer going to wait for you to be released? Would your bank or other creditors wait 3 months for you to make your next payment? Would the government compensate you? I doubt it. So rather than attacking people who want to defend the rights of citizens in a free society you should be thankful that people wiser than you are defending your freedom.
Nobody is saying the government shouldn’t combat terrorism. However, there need to be checks and balances in place to protect the innocent and to prevent the executive from abusing its power. If you allow the government to remove those protections then nobody is safe and you will have laid the foundations for a dictatorship.
And I’m the one who’s paranoid? :roll:
You two do realize that this is war – right? In perfect world you’re right, the terrorists would just come into the police stations with their arms in the air saying “Pick Me – I’m the bad guy”, but the world is not perfect now is it? If you have nothing to hide you have nothing to be afraid of. Of course by the sound of it – You two seem to be afraid of your own shadow. You are entitled to your opinions as am I and everyone else on these boards. But just because we exercise our right to Disagree (god forbid) you suggest we are fools or go so far as to compare an allies country to Nazi Germany. It seems the only people you are concerned about are potential terrorists. Honestly, look at my bank statements, ran-sack my car, I have nothing to hide. Just don’t let those b astards blow up more buildings and kill innocent people. Of course nobody wants his or her freedoms to be taken away. Try blaming the terrorists for this having to happen. Maybe if they stop murdering people we wouldn’t have to resort to this.BTW – As far as our elections are concerned
“Go McCain!” :wink:What you dont seem to realise AW is that once these civil liverties and freedom’s are suspended It’s gonna be a long time before you ever get them back, if indeed you ever get them back.
This isnt a War technically. No war has ever been declared.
Torture, Imprisoment without trial, and all the other Draconican methods used to wheat out these suspected Terrorists. The questions has to be asked that If we start using these kinds of methods are we any better than the Terroists in the 1st place.@Bad Manners wrote:
The questions has to be asked that If we start using these kinds of methods are we any better than the Terroists in the 1st place.
I’ll be happy to answer that question for you – Yes; we are better than the terrorists. If you don’t believe me, then I wouldn’t consider you any better than a terrorist. You’re talking about a handful of people who may or may not be innocent verses people who are cowards and deliberately blow up civilians in the name of their cause. Is it really so hard of a concept to understand?
Yes … because you’re all terrorists so there !!! Ner !!!
@geoff wrote:
@American Woman wrote:
@Bad Manners wrote:
The questions has to be asked that If we start using these kinds of methods are we any better than the Terroists in the 1st place.
I’ll be happy to answer that question for you – Yes; we are better than the terrorists. If you don’t believe me, then I wouldn’t consider you any better than a terrorist. You’re talking about a handful of people who may or may not be innocent verses people who are cowards and deliberately blow up civilians in the name of their cause. Is it really so hard of a concept to understand?
Must be fun living in a concentration camp being brainwashed by Herr Bush.
It must be nice for you to sit and judge the worlds problems from behind a computer screen while enjoying safety tactics that have been put in place to ensure your comfort level. You can live a normal life because in the back of your mind you know that other people are risking their lives for yours. But if you feel better judging our country and sitting on your high horse – so be it.
Is it paranoid to assume a government might abuse its power? McCarthyism, Watergate, Irangate ring any bells? In fact anyone who doesn’t think a government will abuse its power given the chance is a certifiable idiot. The fact that governments are capable of acting barbarically and unethically to accomplish their goals goes without saying. If you get in their way then it’s too bad for you because they won’t give a sh1t. Just look at all the covert CIA and FBI operations during the cold war.
Hoover was spying on Martin Luther King during the civil rights era and he considered leaking taped conversations about MLK’s infidelity in order to discredit him. The CIA carried out acts of terrorism in Nicaragua in order to try to destabilize the country. There were countless other coups and terrorist acts sponsored by the US government because they believed that the ends justified the means. Who do you think was installing and keeping in power all those military juntas in Latin America? US presidents were willing to sacrifice a few american citizens here and there in order to achieve their objectives including Charles Horman in Chile.
No rational citizen would allow their government to suspend the Geneva conventions and the powers of the judiciary. I’m also sure that the modus operandi of the Bush administration is unconstitutional. Yet, you see no problem with this? The vice president was saying today that holding people’s heads under water while they were being questioned was acceptable behaviour. Is that the sort of America you want to live in?
American Woman and Drivel give us this facile response that “if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to be afraid of”. Would they say this if they were held without charge for a few months, losing their homes and their jobs? Would they say this after being held in stress positions for a few hours followed by a brutal beating and interrogation? You can be sure that those 2 would be screaming from the roof-tops about how their rights had been violated and then they would try to sue their respective governments. They’re the sort of people who are prepared to look the other way when it comes to human rights abuses but will complain loudest when their liberty is abused. I pity them.
It’s a cliche but it’s appropriate for this theme, “Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely”.
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