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as panda says, a balance has to be drawn.
Some prof at kent called furedi was complaining about the culture of victims 20 yrs ago, and pointed to a woman from Aberfan who was claiming damages for trauma. He couldn’t understand how Aberfan had traumatised anyone (wiki it)
poli has been making some very interesting points, though, and I hope to reply to them in a couple of days.
My younger son’s birthday today so am busy seeing him.
@kent f OBE wrote:
@(f)politics? wrote:
deal with whats important, deal with any issues that need dealing with and move on.
People who suffer some of the things you have listed do think they are important and probably are trying to deal with them and would love to move on no doubt and should not be made to feel they shouldn’t raise such issues because a few people think they are just moaners ….. what I think is important may not be to you and vice versa…..it does not mean it should be dismissed……..on the point of racism and victims……..I am sure my parents would have love to have seen their kids not suffer it 50 yrs down the line…….makes you wonder who needs to move on exactly
:roll:Don’t you bloody roll ur eyes at me woman :lol:
Look Kenty despite what maybe some people think, and some may disagree too which is perfectly within their right, but, my whole point is this.. like you i don;t think genuine race issues or any issues should be dismissed, quite the opposite, i think they should be handled with the complete and hard force of the law. And i agree i’m sure any parents would want to know their kids aren’t suffering at the hands of some racist bigot, but people in the main who are being genuinely victimised in this way can go about getting it dealt with quickly and efficiently using the many proper channels available to them. What i don’t see the need of is how time and again this is used to gain points, strengthen an arguement as is the case with words paper piece. It’s not just race for me, its just unfortunate this comes up alot on the boards and such and creates a heated response.
I feel exactly the same regarding for instance ageism… a quick off the cuff example would be.. a 65 year old woman applies for a job as a waitress in a fast moving busy restaurant, a 25 year old young person also applies, now as an employer would undoubtadly choose through choice the younger fitter model, simply because they know long term certainly they will (majority speaking) be able to handle the extreme strains and physical pressures of the job far better than some one of 65. Now no one is saying the 65 year old can’t do it of course, and may have more experience perhaps, but physically they can’t maintain the same level of stamina as someone a third of their age.
This is basic human biology as we get older we slow down, but if that was actually said , it would be ageism, the fact its common sense seems irrelevant nowadays. The same would apply with sexism awoman for example applying for a physically demanding job that would be more suited to a man, again yes short term she may be a ble to maintain it for aperiod of time, but that constant pressure would possibly put strain and maybe cause injury in time. The legal lifting weights for men and women are different for that very reason, but employers have to be seen to make adjustments to allow a woman to do the job rather than just letting a bloke do it and being done with it. A dickensian outlook at times maybe, but also practical, and not all changes and moves forward are good things. When political correctness tramples over whats common sense then the worlds gone mad, in my opinion.
Now how this appplies to victims of culture, well the very people that apply for these unsuitable jobs are the gob shytes that shout it from the rooftops how its ageist, sexist and so forth rather than the ones that have a genuine complaint take it to the releavant people and often get a better outcome without sparking any kind of ridiculous circus.
Don;t get me wrong here i have nothing against making certain concession to allow someone to do something, whether cos of their age sex or even disability, i do however object to the way some have to make it an issue when they don’t get what they want, they want to be treated equally until they feel they deserve special treatment and then they all of a sudden have some “i’ve been wronged flag to wave”.
And Kenty i have never found u a person to use the race stick i have to say, i’ve seen people banter with you neil springs to mind about colour and you have always taken it in the spirit it was delivered, which again goes back to a post i made along time ago. It isn’t the words it’s the spirit behind them that should matter.
For want of a better word “able ” people without any obvious signs of disability etc will banter with each other, if someone has a funny ear or dodgy leg for example we naturally take the mick, if someone with a disibility wants to be treated equally then banter regarding that isn’t intended to be nasty is just that people accepting them like any other person, but some will take offence to it. Which is what i mean regarding that.
I hope that clears it up a bit, and you see i am not trying to be heartless or uncaring or rigid, i just think things have got so precious in recent years, and for me its far better to treat that person as a human being like every other and look beyond whatever difference there is, that can’t happen if people continue to use these things to make them a victim when they are no more a victim than the man next door, they just have a different tool to use to make it look like they are.F_pol, Do you really think I put that piece up just to gain points? Or because I thought the piece was about gaining points or strengthening arguments?
I won’t deny that I care to some extent about what people think, but I thought the article was genuinely informative and added some facts and figures to a debate that was had in here a while back but was sadly lacking in substance because few of us – myself included, had accessed them.
But while I care what people think, I actually work really hard to avoid trite point-scoring. That kinda breaks down when I get really tired or fed up with the personalisation of some comments, but I still work at it.
I’m sorry, I thought people would read the article and take the posting in the spirit it was meant. But if if point-scoring is what you think I’m about then I’d better give up on serious subjects and stick to the crap jokes.
Wellllllll I agree whole-heartedly with Poli on this one! =D>
It’s fairly easy to stay within the law with regard to race, disability etc.
Some people absolutely do cry foul when they are themselves antisocial or when they are being excluded for a reason other than race, sexual orientation and so on. It is I suppose natural that many people should focus on these cases rather than countless others where people are discriminated against. Companies holding up their hands and agreeing compensation when they have done the wrong thing without it going to court or tribunal never reach the papers.
The only thing I disagree with is that it is easy to use the law to gain redress. It’s all very well when someone has their head kicked in by people calling them a “black b*stard”, however when someone is constantly belittled and cut out at work, making them miserable, harming their career prospects, or worse, losing their job, you have to be a very strong person sometimes to stand up to it.
If you have done a certain job for years in a specialist area, you know that standing up to your bosses can mean that you are never able to find another job like that again. This doesn’t just happen because of discrimination as defined by the law but there is also case law to prevent people being bullied and harassed at work whatever the reason.
The truth is that the law in theory protects everyone from bad behaviour but getting it to work can be very difficult. For all the high profile cases where people cry injustice because they think it is political correctness gone mad, there are many many people sitting miserable, their lives ruined by small minded people who only like mixing and working with their own.
There are lots of big hearted, fair minded people out there but, just because there are, that doesn’t mean that everyone gets a fair crack at the whip.
Even with the extreme stuff such as terrorism, how quickly we forget that white Christians have been responsible for incredible atrocities across the world and the deaths of millions of people right on our doorsteps. Once again it’s not that extremists who call themselves true Muslims should not be opposed at every turn, it’s just that we should not see all Muslims the same way.
To go right back to the point of thread, it is not helpful for people, even if they are “victims” to see themselves as such because then they lose control of their own situation and can only be “rescued”. Of course there are also the official legal “victims” of slips, trips, falls, accidents etc. who sometimes need their compensation, but are sometimes just taking money out of everyone else’s pockets by making companies and public bodies give them inflated pay outs.
For everyone’s sake let’s all not be victims, but have some generosity for those who suffer at the hands of others, and for whom it is still too raw for them to move on.
Pollers …when you told me you wrote a 1000 word essay I was flipping hoping you were joking mrs :lol:
I get your points (all 100.000 of them :lol: ) I am not dismissing them….yours are valid and I respect what you say even on things I do not agree with….only thing I have ever disagreed with here are lies and darn right rudeness….even if I don’t agree with somthing someone types I would not spoil their thread..I would simply not comment on it…
As for explanations…..I don’t think I am that silly that I don’t understand reasoning…..on any side or thingx
Well it’s a good job that some ppl somewhere decided they were a “victim” else we wouldn’t have any laws against race, sex, age and disability discrimination.
I wonder if these ppl really were victims or if they were just playing at it. :-k
@panda12 wrote:
Well it’s a good job that some ppl somewhere decided they were a “victim” else we wouldn’t have any laws against race, sex, age and disability discrimination.
I wonder if these ppl really were victims or if they were just playing at it. :-k
I wonder if you’re really wondering or just playing at it . . .. . .
@wordsworth60 wrote:
F_pol, Do you really think I put that piece up just to gain points? Or because I thought the piece was about gaining points or strengthening arguments?
I won’t deny that I care to some extent about what people think, but I thought the article was genuinely informative and added some facts and figures to a debate that was had in here a while back but was sadly lacking in substance because few of us – myself included, had accessed them.
But while I care what people think, I actually work really hard to avoid trite point-scoring. That kinda breaks down when I get really tired or fed up with the personalisation of some comments, but I still work at it.
I’m sorry, I thought people would read the article and take the posting in the spirit it was meant. But if if point-scoring is what you think I’m about then I’d better give up on serious subjects and stick to the crap jokes.
No words sorry on re reading it I can see how you thought that, but not what i intended… I meant the post you put up, not the fact you put it up and in fairness I agree with the content of the post in essence just not the reasoning behind it doing it.
sodding phones grrr
@wordsworth60 wrote:
@panda12 wrote:
Well it’s a good job that some ppl somewhere decided they were a “victim” else we wouldn’t have any laws against race, sex, age and disability discrimination.
I wonder if these ppl really were victims or if they were just playing at it. :-k
I wonder if you’re really wondering or just playing at it . . .. . .
Someone somewhere set the precedent.
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