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I think that is the point some of us have been making Pete… that some people have good upbringings and still turn out bad. Some people have terrible childhoods full of pain and deprivation and become nobel prize winners.
I don’t know what makes some people do what they do, but i do think that you will find children who pull the legs off insects and fry flies with magnifying glasses, and tie bangers to cats tails, and you will find children who rescue cats from drowning, who save small animals from certain death, and who cherish every living thing. And THAT personality trait is something I think people are born with.
I know but ultimately you can understand what made them do it, publish papers on it , receive accolades and awards but you cannot release them. You cant take the chance, it’s as big a tragedy to release one person who kills again as it is to hang an innocent man (or woman)
Picking up on a few points…
Comparing ourselves to animals is not going to get us anywhere, sure sharks attack humans sometimes, dogs bite, etc…but there is a big difference between us and them… animals act on instinct not reason, and there is always a reason, the cat that plays with the mouse is honing its hunting skills, survival of the fittest, a lion will kill the cubs of a pride he takes over to bring the lionesses in heat, and ensure his genes carry on.. preservation.
We are going round in circles here, everyone has ideas about where and why our society is wrong, we`re not focusing on what we can do!
I think our children need more from us as a society instead of just writing them off, we need to protect our children more and help famillies. We have a lot of people here, so instead of bleating about who`s right and who`s wrong…..let`s come up with some feasible ideas on how we can change things?
@nemesis wrote:
Picking up on a few points…
Comparing ourselves to animals is not going to get us anywhere, sure sharks attack humans sometimes, dogs bite, etc…but there is a big difference between us and them… animals act on instinct not reason, and there is always a reason, the cat that plays with the mouse is honing its hunting skills, survival of the fittest, a lion will kill the cubs of a pride he takes over to bring the lionesses in heat, and ensure his genes carry on.. preservation.
We are going round in circles here, everyone has ideas about where and why our society is wrong, we`re not focusing on what we can do!
I think our children need more from us as a society instead of just writing them off, we need to protect our children more and help famillies. We have a lot of people here, so instead of bleating about who`s right and who`s wrong…..let`s come up with some feasible ideas on how we can change things?
Try becoming a Social Worker, Police Officer, Community PSo or even join the Specials, go and see how some of these children live, if the parents will let us into their homes – and if they do wipe your feet on the way out.
@nemesis wrote:
Picking up on a few points…
Comparing ourselves to animals is not going to get us anywhere, sure sharks attack humans sometimes, dogs bite, etc…but there is a big difference between us and them… animals act on instinct not reason, and there is always a reason, the cat that plays with the mouse is honing its hunting skills, survival of the fittest, a lion will kill the cubs of a pride he takes over to bring the lionesses in heat, and ensure his genes carry on.. preservation.
We are going round in circles here, everyone has ideas about where and why our society is wrong, we`re not focusing on what we can do!
I think our children need more from us as a society instead of just writing them off, we need to protect our children more and help famillies. We have a lot of people here, so instead of bleating about who`s right and who`s wrong…..let`s come up with some feasible ideas on how we can change things?
@(f)politics? wrote:
hmmm gazlan… this is maybe where i become a meat head too lol … i am a firm believer in discipline and punishment to fit the crime, i am one of those :shock: parents that do believe sometimes as long as its not done in anger a smack isnt a bad thing which is akin to short sharp shock treatments, i am a firm believer in the likes of boot camps, alot of these “kids” either are lacking in disciple and moral guidance or sometimes just lack of love and affection, often the case of “rich kids” that go off the rails, they are “given things” in the material sense just not in the sense they need, and often attention seeking bad behaviour is rewarded by “buying the parents peace ” which of course is temporary and just rewarding the behaviour and so it comes around again and gets worse.
So what can we do about it ???
i honesty dont know, in my opinion children get too many rights nowadays, children were always seen but not heard, so ok that is going a bit dark ages but they need to bring back respect for elders that just isnt there anymore by many, teachers were often able to assist in guiding kids in the rights and wrong through discilpine and correction again this is virtually impossible in cases that do require a stronger correction.
Maybe justice should be harsher for both parents that children get into trouble with police as often these kind of crimes are comitted by kids with previous, social services should remove any child from a home that isnt satisfying a childs needs through either not enough love and discipline or too much of both. Maybe decent courses or training or indeed fines and sentences in some cases to these parents will shake things up and be needed before a child is returned home.. i’m really not sure of the logistics or even if that would work but something needs doing and soon. And for the record this particular lad ok so he has been damaged let down with his upbringing but he deserves a log sharp shock treatment for what he has done. It is kinda in a way to let him know its wrong feel the punishment so he can actually learn from it and not just be counselled for years and learn nothing.(which is often the way) Also i think every child comitting a crime requiring a sentence should ONLY go to a boot camp type place, but also it does have people that while instilling discipline and morals and correct behaviour can also show praise. love and affection for when they do right.i still dont believe children are born evil unless they have a genuine chemical imbalance in their brain (mental illness) but as jen said 1 of 4 can turn bad despite being bought up exactly the same, as i said earlier i think that is the point … everyone is different and every child / person needs handling in different ways, and this is where us as parents are really knackered, we know what we know and how we were bought up and what we see, its difficult to try and manage people differently especially if the “personality” “character” call it what you will isnt something you are used to managing or coping with, this is where i feel the social services with people who have experience in managing people and children need to come into play even if it does involve removing the child from a loving home and putting them some where they can be managed where there is no rea emotional involvement, its the cruel to be kind thing. I;m not saying these people failed as parents or could have done anything differently, they couldnt they too are who they are and did what they could, but this case easy to say now but needed different care, different handling, different teaching. Maybe rather than parenting classes being about the “norm” they should cover the not norm too. I’m not sure.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/tayside_and_central/7790133.stm
a colleague of mine at end of his tether.. he was with a class that wanted to learn..its made a showcase of one damm good teacher ! I have to ignore many a child in my classes,pretend they dont exist, for the sake of the ones willing to learn.
mike Barile was sacked as a teacher as one dude kept telling him to ” fk off” and interuppted an entire class in the Library, not even a child of the usual ” ahd”. just some wee cu.nt that wanted a fight.he goaded his teacher by saying he had ” fvcked his wife” etc.
the wee swine will be in Perth Prison soon.. he been in 4 different schools, and a catholic school took him.i am back freelance teaching.. god give me the serenity to NOT hit them :)
Is it nature or nuture?
If it’s nuture then ppl blame the upbringing and parents or as is most common, blame everyone and eveything except the parents – i.e. wider society.
But if we can blame wider society for having a bad inlfuence then surely we can accredit it with having a good influence as well?
If not, then why isn’t the majority of the population offenders?
I think it is also down to nature – after all, we are just animals and animals from birth follow their natural instincts. As animals yet also “humans” when we choose to be, we indoctrinate children into being civillised – that is, not animals. Unfortunately with some children, this artifical state doesn’t work.
ok. i find as i get older the more the expression “oh they are attention defficiet” comes into play. If that was the case why did this remarkable illness not rear its ugly head when i was of school age ?? I can remember 2 guys that sat at the teachers table as they were naughty.. yet both are succesful businessmen,, one as a builder and the other a Spanish property owner/seller.
why is A>D>D a sudden new thing of the 21st century ? its given a name to bad kids that have no one at home, showing them the difference between right and wrong, and mollycoddling them. I speak from experience of a so called pal, who once took her son on a football tournament. Turns out he had 2 left feet, according to her he was the next maradonna.. he sulked THAT much she went out and bought a trophy, and pretended it was given out in error.. ” robert the REAL hero”.. he was like a horror movie child, we could not say anything in case he burst into flames. and as the jesuits say. give me the child to the age o seven and i will show ya the “man” .. suffice to say he is a spoilt brat of 27 and folks are scared of him !
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