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6 December, 2012 at 2:15 pm #19469
Breaking news on Yahoo:
Max clifford blah blah blah operation Yewtree.
Ok basically there are 3 categories in operation Yewtree
1. Jimmy Saville
2. Jimmy Saville and others
3. OthersMax Clifford has been arrested in category 3. So someone has made an allegation of sexual assult involving Clifford.
I don’t know obviously if he is guilty or not and if he is he deserves to pay for the crime, however the point I wish to make is that I think the law should change regarding the naming of men in these circumstances. If they are guilty then yes release their names etc, but when an allegation is made the police usually have to arrest the suspect for questioning. Could turn out he is not guilty, but mud sticks. People become wary, some say no smoke without fire, when sometimes soemone could just be getting their own back on a person for maybe a relationship break up or money matters or somthing trivial like getting custody of the goldfish.
What do you think?6 December, 2012 at 2:44 pm #516507@kent f OBE wrote:
Breaking news on Yahoo:
Max clifford blah blah blah operation Yewtree.
Ok basically there are 3 categories in operation Yewtree
1. Jimmy Saville
2. Jimmy Saville and others
3. OthersMax Clifford has been arrested in category 3. So someone has made an allegation of sexual assult involving Clifford.
I don’t know obviously if he is guilty or not and if he is he deserves to pay for the crime, however the point I wish to make is that I think the law should change regarding the naming of men in these circumstances. If they are guilty then yes release their names etc, but when an allegation is made the police usually have to arrest the suspect for questioning. Could turn out he is not guilty, but mud sticks. People become wary, some say no smoke without fire, when sometimes soemone could just be getting their own back on a person for maybe a relationship break up or money matters or somthing trivial like getting custody of the goldfish.
What do you think?Very quick response:
With the exception of very special cases and cases involving young people where reporting restrictions need to be applied, there are very good reasons why accused people are not afforded anonymity. The most obvious is naming the accused facilitates the evidential process. For example, people who may have been victims of the accused may be inspired to step forward, once they know there is a possibility of justice. Also it is important that we are able to see the judicial system at work for various reasons.
But you’re right: mud sticks. We can address this to a great degree, I think, by ensuring the media that readily reports when someone has been arrested etc just as zealously reports when they are vindicated.
6 December, 2012 at 2:46 pm #516508@kent f OBE wrote:
Breaking news on Yahoo:
Max clifford blah blah blah operation Yewtree.
Ok basically there are 3 categories in operation Yewtree
1. Jimmy Saville
2. Jimmy Saville and others
3. OthersMax Clifford has been arrested in category 3. So someone has made an allegation of sexual assult involving Clifford.
I don’t know obviously if he is guilty or not and if he is he deserves to pay for the crime, however the point I wish to make is that I think the law should change regarding the naming of men in these circumstances. If they are guilty then yes release their names etc, but when an allegation is made the police usually have to arrest the suspect for questioning. Could turn out he is not guilty, but mud sticks. People become wary, some say no smoke without fire, when sometimes soemone could just be getting their own back on a person for maybe a relationship break up or money matters or somthing trivial like getting custody of the goldfish.
What do you think?Always understood the reason for a victim’s name not being released unless they release it themselves, but have always struggled with the double standard about releasing the accused’s name, given the fact that mud sticks whatever you do.
I suppose the problem is that we would have to wait until a conviction before the public could hear about some accusations. People might say that would prevent other victims coming forward or the public being warned in advance.
However would we really be in a worse place if the Police had time to investigate these things before the media witch-hunt begun? Also it would force the media to take their evidence straight to the Police, instead of working out whether to broadcast or publish, thus avoiding the Newsnight dilemma. The one problem is what would the media do if the Police failed to take an allegation seriously. If they couldn’t report, how would the Police and other agencies be held to account for any foot dragging? And how would we ever know if things were being swept under the carpet? Maybe the press could report without a name, but in these days of social networking that has been shown to be an unreliable way of hiding someone’s name.
I think you make a very valid point, but who is going to have the nerve to get it onto the statute books?
6 December, 2012 at 2:46 pm #516509Forgot to say that prior to knowing the details this is looking more and more like a witch hunt.
6 December, 2012 at 2:52 pm #516510And I also forgot to say that my initial guess is that I wouldn’t be surprised if he has been arrested for withholding information pertaining to one of his clients, in which case the reports should make this clear. But that’s just my initial guess, I could be completely wrong.
6 December, 2012 at 2:53 pm #516511Well Max Clifford has alot of clout in media circles lets see how this progresses.
6 December, 2012 at 3:22 pm #516512@rusty trawler wrote:
With the exception of very special cases and cases involving young people where reporting restrictions need to be applied, there are very good reasons why accused people are not afforded anonymity. The most obvious is naming the accused facilitates the evidential process. For example, people who may have been victims of the accused may be inspired to step forward, once they know there is a possibility of justice. Also it is important that we are able to see the judicial system at work for various reasons.
But you’re right: mud sticks. We can address this to a great degree, I think, by ensuring the media that readily reports when someone has been arrested etc just as zealously reports when they are vindicated.
Completely agree with this.
A lady that I know has, in the last 12 months or so, gone through the ordeal of supporting her son through a court case for historic sex abuse. The abuse occurred when her son was between 8 and 12 years old; he’s now in his thirties. From the point where he first decided to report it to the police (also the first time his family were aware that he had been abused) it has taken 9 years for the case to come to court and for the abuser to be convicted.
When he first reported it, no one believed him, he was accused of making it up…the man he was accusing was a family friend, prominent in his profession and well respected. Had it come down to his story alone, it would never have been taken further but somehow the local newspaper got wind of the story and published. This was then picked up by a national newspaper and that got things moving as at least 15 young men contacted the police to say that they too had been abused by the same man over a 20 year period. 7 of them were also prepared to follow the complaint through to conclusion – I now know from her experience just how tough that is. Without the publicity these men would not have come forward. If they had not come forward he would have been branded a liar and become a victim all over again and the abuser would have been free to continue what he was doing.
It has truly been an ordeal for the whole family, not just the son, and somehow they have to pick up the pieces. Having spoken to her only this week, I’m not sure if they can do it, too much damage has been done. :(
Yes, sometimes people will jump on the bandwagon but we rely on the police to investigate and to weed those people out. Yes, sometimes a witch-hunt will take place. But what is better, for some people to be wrongly accused then get an apology, or for the real abusers to slip through the net because every victim thinks that they are the only one and that no one will listen and/or believe them?
6 December, 2012 at 3:54 pm #516513i had to google to find out who max clifford was :oops: there’s been so many names and faces i can’t remember which name belongs to who :roll:
6 December, 2012 at 4:15 pm #516514A sad but perfect illustration, Jen*2
the law in action is not a neat and pretty thing.
6 December, 2012 at 5:38 pm #516515And yet Jen, presumably if the Police had taken the complaint seriously in the first place they could have investigated the other boys he had come into contact with. The whole thing could have been dealt with years ago, with no press involvement.
Each accusation has to stand up on its own or the accused will be found innocent, so the Police have a duty to investigate properly. Who is being convinced by finding other potential cases of abuse? Not a jury because they are forced to consider the evidence in each individual case, or the judge who has to direct them.
It seems it is the Police, and not the courts, who need convincing. Or maybe the Crown Prosecution Service would only moved when they saw a lot of mud being thrown. Either way their failure to act is problematic at best and reprehensible at worst.
The evidence against this abuser in your friend’s son’s case did not change because more people came forward. It is heart-breaking that it was not taken further until many years later when more victims came forward. What would have happened if the press had not picked the story up? What justice would there have been for that poor lad?
This problem is mirrored in the Savile case. We are running round pointing fingers at the BBC and everyone we can for allegedly “protecting” Jimmy Savile, or at the very least for not protecting the victims. In the case of the BBC we are criticising them for not broadcasting a story the Police had not made a move on themselves. The abuser you refer to was “prominent in his profession”, just like Savile.
But the Police already had plenty of evidence. They didn’t take it further, in either case. They simply didn’t believe the people who had the courage to make the accusation. It is incredibly depressing that despite the testimony of reliable victims in both cases, nothing was done, until we had a media circus and the attendant witch-hunt.
Rather have innocent people publicly accused and ruined, than have an abuser go free? What happened to innocent until proven guilty?
As your story illustrates, trial by media is only for the few. Most people accused of committing sexual crimes are not outed by the national press, so it is hardly the basis for a fair legal system for the victims, let alone the accused. The answer as always is for the authorities to take victims seriously and investigate their allegations thoroughly in the first place.
Relying on trial by media, although it has provided justice for some, is an unequal and unfair way of treating both the victim and the accused.
There was no need for a public outing in the case you outlined or the Savile case – just a society and a criminal justice system that takes victims’ stories seriously, doesn’t accuse them of making it up, and investigating them properly.
My heart goes out to that lad and his family – they should never have had to rely on the papers to get them justice.
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